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Thread: Racism and Systematic Racism: Safety vs MMC

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Yes it did, when Stop and Frisk wasn't implemented in all of NYC and was targeting areas of High Crime. While looking at population. It was a false account of the population.
    Now you are attempting to argue from an unknown. There is no constant metric to qualify someone that self-identifies as Hispanic. The US census breaks down the racial identification by several questions on the topic, whereas most police arrest forms do not.

    Now, tell me why this is an issue for you and your argument.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - J. Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    No, "per capita" has no bearing on whether or not stop and frisk was a racist policy. You can implement a stop and frisk policy and not have it trend towards being racist, that is solely dependent on the agency implementing the strategy. Again, it also doesn't matter whether or not it is a "nationwide" policy, systemic racism that plagues an agency is still systemic racism. You don't get to say, "Hey look, Wichita doesn't have a police force that has systemic racism; therefore, it doesn't exist anywhere." I didn't say that blacks having a higher crime rate is a fallacy, I said using the rate to make the argument is a fallacy.

    Yet another study to support my argument says this....
    "Instead of approaching the study with a point of view to be proved or disproved, the researchers set out on a fact-finding mission. They spent two years analyzing the two-year database of 603 firearm homicides by police. They tagged and coded the narratives to put each shooting into context, and then ran the detailed results through a computer program. “The computer looked at the variations in the data and grouped the victims into categories,” says Miller. “It turned out that there were seven categories that fit the statistics.”The seven subtypes of police shootings set apart victims who were armed (with guns or knives) or unarmed, victims who were violent or non-violent, and other crucial details. Among those who were unarmed and appeared to show no objective threat to police, nearly two-thirds of the victims were Hispanic or Black." https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/0...e-preventable/

    You argue that crime and suspect behavior determine police interaction, well, that isn't an argument anyone is making, that is common sense. However, when that officer profiles a black person differently than a white person, regardless of "crime rate" that is systemic racism. They are making a judgment on a person based solely on their skin color. Think about it like this; if we were in South Africa and the majority (black) is using systemic racism to oppress the minority (white), I would be arguing the same point, my position would not change based upon the color of the person that is doing the oppressing nor the oppressed.

    Police reforms are a good start, but they hardly addressed the issues we are debating. Having moderate changes is a feel-good thing to write about, but the famous quote from Benjamin Franklin says it all, "it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer."

    To your last point, no, you do not need to know the "rate of lawbreaking among that group" when talking about motorists, because it has no bearing on the civil liberties bestowed upon us all. Nobody should be profiled or stopped because they share the same skin color as someone that breaks the law, that isn't how the system was supposed to be designed. We are not a "paper's please" society and I hope I read your post wrong because it seemed like that was what you were advocating for. This study based off of the federal government's data shows the disparity in how people are stopped in their vehicles, broken down by race. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...atistics-show/
    Yes per capita does. Other Police Depts all across the country have stop and frisk policies. No others were deemed racist. One example out of all those Police depts across the country. Doesn't mean there is systemic racism with the police. Infact due to all other Police Depts being a majority and not some disparity. Validates there is no systemic racism in Police Depts across the country. What you did with NYC and its stop and frisk policy is prove the exception to the norm. Which again validates there isn't any systemic racism by police.

    Well despite your link by NE Ed......More whites that were unarmed were killed than Blacks or Latinos. Been that way for years and especially since the 90s.

    Yes you can't make an argument about suspect behavior, that which you say is common sense. That doesn't mean the variable is dismissed when looking at systemic racism by Police against blacks. Also you forget the fact that almost 20% of attacks on cops with firearms or a weapon. Is done more by Blacks. So in areas of High crime rates. Like the West and South Side of Chicago which is predominately Black. There will be a higher percentage of Blacks involved in crime. Just as with Latino Neighborhoods and White Neighborhoods.

    Again.

    But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on. Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference.....snip~



    Then you said this.


    When you consider that much of our criminal justice system was built, honed, and firmly established during the Jim Crow era, an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede was rife with racism. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order, meaning it kept black people in their place......snip~


    Yet Police reforms brought on by Civil Rights groups. Activists and Politicians. Brought reform to Police Depts. Especially with Democrat governed and controlled cities. So no the modern criminal justice system did not preserve racial order. That is a straight up falsehood.


    Oh and Ted Miller despite his research found no systemic racism with regards to Motorists. That is who you were relying on.


    Ted R Miller currently works at the Calverton Center, Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation and is an Adjunct Professor at the Curtin University School of Public Health.


    I have to break due to some issues for work. Will return later.
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Yes per capita does. Other Police Depts all across the country have stop and frisk policies. No others were deemed racist. One example out of all those Police depts across the country. Doesn't mean there is systemic racism with the police. Infact due to all other Police Depts being a majority and not some disparity. Validates there is no systemic racism in Police Depts across the country. What you did with NYC and its stop and frisk policy is prove the exception to the norm. Which again validates there isn't any systemic racism by police.

    Well despite your link by NE Ed......More whites that were unarmed were killed than Blacks or Latinos. Been that way for years and especially since the 90s.

    Yes you can't make an argument about suspect behavior, that which you say is common sense. That doesn't mean the variable is dismissed when looking at systemic racism by Police against blacks. Also you forget the fact that almost 20% of attacks on cops with firearms or a weapon. Is done more by Blacks. So in areas of High crime rates. Like the West and South Side of Chicago which is predominately Black. There will be a higher percentage of Blacks involved in crime. Just as with Latino Neighborhoods and White Neighborhoods.

    Again.

    But aren’t blacks routinely “racially profiled” by cops? Not according to the Police-Public Contact Survey. Produced every three years by the Department of Justice’s Bureau of Justice Statistics, the survey asks more than 60,000 people about their interactions with the police. It asks respondents’ to provide age, race and gender. It asks them whether they had any contact with the police in the last year; what was the experience like; how were your treated; was there a use of force and so on. Turns out, according to a September 2017 National Review article, black men and white men are about equally likely to have a contact with a cop in a given year. As to multiple contacts, defined as three or more with the police in a given year, 1.5 percent of blacks vs. 1.2 percent of whites fall in that category. Not much difference.....snip~



    Then you said this.


    When you consider that much of our criminal justice system was built, honed, and firmly established during the Jim Crow era, an era almost everyone, conservatives included, will concede was rife with racism. The modern criminal-justice system helped preserve racial order, meaning it kept black people in their place......snip~


    Yet Police reforms brought on by Civil Rights groups. Activists and Politicians. Brought reform to Police Depts. Especially with Democrat governed and controlled cities. So no the modern criminal justice system did not preserve racial order. That is a straight up falsehood.


    Oh and Ted Miller despite his research found no systemic racism with regards to Motorists. That is who you were relying on.


    Ted R Miller currently works at the Calverton Center, Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation and is an Adjunct Professor at the Curtin University School of Public Health.


    I have to break due to some issues for work. Will return later.
    What "other" police departments are you referring to? How do you qualify whether or not it was "deemed" racist?

    Do I need to repost what systemic racism is? I see you keep using it in the wrong context. It isn't an "all or nothing" criteria and you can have police departments that do not show any indication of systemic racism, and you can have others that show abnormal indications of systemic racism.

    More whites were killed by police than black or hispanic...now you are referencing a "total", not "rate". Let's keep with the same metrics when we make our arguments. Additionally, we are debating systemic racism and whethor or not it exists, in which we should have to establish that before we can move to any "causes" such your statement "Also you forget the fact that almost 20% of attacks on cops with firearms or a weapon. Is done more by Blacks". However, since you brought it up, are you trying to argue that cops are justified in their systemic racism because they should fear blacks based upon your statement?

    Are you trying to ascertain that cops don't profile black people by referencing a survey? A survey that I linked in my post that shows that "driving while black" was a real phenomenon?

    So, the "democratic run cities" are not preserving the racial order, because they are "democratically run"? Is that what you are insisting on?

    What did Ted Miller conclude? Because the data shows not only systemic racism in police profiling blacks at a higher rate, but that you are more likely to get pulled over for driving while black. In fact, Native Americans are were at the top of the list according to the data.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - J. Davis

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    Now you are attempting to argue from an unknown. There is no constant metric to qualify someone that self-identifies as Hispanic. The US census breaks down the racial identification by several questions on the topic, whereas most police arrest forms do not.

    Now, tell me why this is an issue for you and your argument.
    Its not an unknown, for decades Hispanics were identified as white. As to the argument. You used Stop and frisk and the Court conceded that High crime Areas in NYC were targeted. While knowing some areas of the city the policy wasn't put in place. Yet they still ruled in favor of the ACLU and others.

    Non-Hispanic Whites Are Now a ... - The New York Times

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/nyregion/28nycensus.html
    Mar 28, 2011 · For the first time, black, Hispanic and Asian residents of New York City and its suburbs are a majority of the metropolitan area’s more than 19 million residents, according to the 2010 census



    The point was you were wrong on who made up the majority of the city proper then you were given the reason why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    What "other" police departments are you referring to? How do you qualify whether or not it was "deemed" racist?

    Do I need to repost what systemic racism is? I see you keep using it in the wrong context. It isn't an "all or nothing" criteria and you can have police departments that do not show any indication of systemic racism, and you can have others that show abnormal indications of systemic racism.

    More whites were killed by police than black or hispanic...now you are referencing a "total", not "rate". Let's keep with the same metrics when we make our arguments. Additionally, we are debating systemic racism and whethor or not it exists, in which we should have to establish that before we can move to any "causes" such your statement "Also you forget the fact that almost 20% of attacks on cops with firearms or a weapon. Is done more by Blacks". However, since you brought it up, are you trying to argue that cops are justified in their systemic racism because they should fear blacks based upon your statement?

    Are you trying to ascertain that cops don't profile black people by referencing a survey? A survey that I linked in my post that shows that "driving while black" was a real phenomenon?

    So, the "democratic run cities" are not preserving the racial order, because they are "democratically run"? Is that what you are insisting on?

    What did Ted Miller conclude? Because the data shows not only systemic racism in police profiling blacks at a higher rate, but that you are more likely to get pulled over for driving while black. In fact, Native Americans are were at the top of the list according to the data.
    What other police depts? What confuses you about the majority across the nation?

    Do I need to put up the video of Thomas Sowell so you can comprehend why there is no systemic racism? Yes that is what the majority is and then you can show a few exceptions to the norm. That is what is called a few disparities.

    Again my stats back that criminal behavior identified to groups isn't racism. Also my stat from the Dept of Justice states blacks are not racially profiled and their study bears that out. Done every 3 years all over the country. Then there is the Leftist Fryer and his study. “On the most extreme use of force — officer-involved shootings — we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.”


    Then there is the National Crime Victim Survey that supports there is no Systemic Racism by Cops against Blacks. Their study supports the DOJ study. Then the National Academy of Sciences that the researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is ‘no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,’ they concluded.


    Yes more whites are killed than blacks or Hispanics. That's despite the fact that more crimes are committed by Blacks. Oh and yes that would include the stat on unarmed groups.


    No I am not trying to ascertain that cops don't profile black people by referencing just a survey. I am doing so with 4 or 5 studies. Surveys. Reports. Or whatever terminology you use.


    Oh because you used that more blacks are stopped while driving. The Motorists study?



    The Racial Profiling Myth Debunked.....


    The anti–racial profiling juggernaut has finally met its nemesis: the truth. According to a new study, black drivers on the New Jersey Turnpike are twice as likely to speed as white drivers, and are even more dominant among drivers breaking 90 miles per hour. This finding demolishes the myth of racial profiling. Precisely for that reason, the Bush Justice Department tried to bury the report so the profiling juggernaut could continue its destructive campaign against law enforcement. What happens next will show whether the politics of racial victimization now trump all other national concerns.


    Until now, the anti-police crusade that travels under the banner of “ending racial profiling” has traded on ignorance. Its spokesmen went around the country charging that the police were stopping “too many” minorities for traffic infractions or more serious violations. The reason, explained the anti-cop crowd, was that the police were racist.


    They can argue that no more. The new turnpike study solves one of the most vexing problems in racial profiling analysis: establishing a violator benchmark. To show that the police are stopping “too many” members of a group, you need to know, at a minimum, the rate of lawbreaking among that group—the so-called violator benchmark. Only if the rate of stops or arrests greatly exceeds the rate of criminal behavior should our suspicions be raised.


    But most of the studies that the ACLU and defense attorneys have proffered to show biased behavior by the police only used crude population measures as the benchmark for comparing police activity—arguing, say, that if 24 percent of speeding stops on a particular stretch of highway were of black drivers, in a city or state where blacks make up 19 percent of the population, the police are over-stopping blacks.


    Such an analysis is clearly specious, since it fails to say what percentage of speeders are black, but the data required to rebut it were not available.


    Such investigations violate the reigning fiction in anti–racial profiling rhetoric: that all groups commit crime and other infractions at equal rates. It follows from this central fiction that any differences in the rate at which the police interact with certain citizens result only from police bias, not from differences in citizen behavior.

    Despite the glaring flaws in every racial profiling study heretofore available, the press and the politicians jumped on the anti-profiling bandwagon. How could they lose? They showed their racial sensitivity, and, as for defaming the police without evidence, well, you don’t have to worry that the New York Times will be on your case if you do.


    No institution made more destructive use of racial profiling junk science than the Clinton Justice Department. Armed with the shoddy studies, it slapped costly consent decrees on police departments across the country, requiring them to monitor their officers’ every interaction with minorities, among other managerial intrusions.

    But one thing did not change after the much-publicized consent decree: the proportion of blacks stopped on the turnpike for speeding continued to exceed their proportion in the driving population. Man, those troopers must be either really dumb or really racist! thought most observers, including the New Jersey attorney general, who accused the troopers of persistent profiling.


    Black drivers speed twice as much as white drivers, and speed at reckless levels even more. Blacks are actually stopped less than their speeding behavior would predict—they are 23 percent of those stopped.


    The devastation wrought by this study to the anti-police agenda is catastrophic. It turns out that the police stop blacks more for speeding because they speed more. Race has nothing to do with it.


    The elegant study, designed by the Public Service Research Institute in Maryland, had taken photos with high-speed camera equipment and a radar gun of nearly 40,000 drivers on the turnpike. The researchers then showed the photos to a team of three evaluators, who identified the race of the driver. The evaluators had no idea if the drivers in the photos had been speeding. The photos were then correlated with speeds.


    Matthew Zingraff’s pioneering traffic research in North Carolina, due out in April, as well as sound studies in Pennsylvania, New York, and Miami. Expect many of the results to support the turnpike data, since circumstantial evidence from traffic fatalities and drunk-driving tests have long suggested different driving behaviors among different racial groups. While racist cops undoubtedly do exist, and undoubtedly they are responsible for isolated instances of racial profiling, the evidence shows that systematic racial profiling by police does not exist.....snip~


    https://www.city-journal.org/html/ra...ked-12244.html


    No the Democratic governed and controlled cities, along with their activists implemented change. Reforms to mitigate racism in their police depts.


    What did Ted Miller conclude. As follows.


    “What this study says is that it doesn’t matter what your race is when you’re in a stop and frisk situation or arrest situation with a police officer. Your chance of being injured or killed is the same regardless of race – it’s equally dangerous for everyone,” Miller said.


    Miller said that his findings were consistent with simulation studies that have found “police are no more likely to fire on unarmed blacks than unarmed whites”, citing a 2007 study from the University of Colorado. Researchers there found that, while the general public is more likely to erroneously shoot an unarmed black person in a computer simulation, police officers in the same game did not make the same errors. “Officers showed greater sensitivity,” that study reads, and “this tended to be particularly true with Black targets”. The same study found that both police and the general public were susceptible to anti-black bias in their reaction time.


    A third study, also released this month, from the Center for Policing Equity (PE), a criminal justice thinktank, reached a conclusion similar to Fryer’s. Its data suggests that in most use-of-force situations, black Americans were “more likely than Whites to be targeted for force”, including the drawing and pointing of weapons, use of pepper spray, Tasers and hands. But when it came to lethal force, the mean use of force rate was nearly double for whites versus blacks. The PE data was pulled from Bureau of Justice Statistics numbers for eight locales, and calculated use of force compared against arrests......snip~

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...counters-study
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  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Its not an unknown, for decades Hispanics were identified as white. As to the argument. You used Stop and frisk and the Court conceded that High crime Areas in NYC were targeted. While knowing some areas of the city the policy wasn't put in place. Yet they still ruled in favor of the ACLU and others.

    Non-Hispanic Whites Are Now a ... - The New York Times

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/nyregion/28nycensus.html
    Mar 28, 2011 · For the first time, black, Hispanic and Asian residents of New York City and its suburbs are a majority of the metropolitan area’s more than 19 million residents, according to the 2010 census



    The point was you were wrong on who made up the majority of the city proper then you were given the reason why.
    This is what you said..."Considering most of New York City is Black and Latino" I showed you that is false, Black, Latino, and Asian combined is a slim majority over whites. Whites still outnumber black and Latino.

    Then you said this..."Rather it was applied in High Crime areas which in New York tend to be disproportionately Black and Latino"...it can't be "disproportionate" if the census accuratly reports the numbers.

    So far you have not come close to supporting your premise, you pick a couple of outliers that use statistics to try and paint something that isn't true, then when I challenge you on them, you just repeat what you've already posted. Even the words you use to defend your argument only strengthens mine because you attempt to make it about the police having "cause" to profile based upon the crime rate of blacks, which laughingly proves that systemic racism is used by the police.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - J. Davis

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    What other police depts? What confuses you about the majority across the nation?

    Do I need to put up the video of Thomas Sowell so you can comprehend why there is no systemic racism? Yes that is what the majority is and then you can show a few exceptions to the norm. That is what is called a few disparities.

    Again my stats back that criminal behavior identified to groups isn't racism. Also my stat from the Dept of Justice states blacks are not racially profiled and their study bears that out. Done every 3 years all over the country. Then there is the Leftist Fryer and his study. “On the most extreme use of force — officer-involved shootings — we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account.”


    Then there is the National Crime Victim Survey that supports there is no Systemic Racism by Cops against Blacks. Their study supports the DOJ study. Then the National Academy of Sciences that the researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is ‘no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,’ they concluded.


    Yes more whites are killed than blacks or Hispanics. That's despite the fact that more crimes are committed by Blacks. Oh and yes that would include the stat on unarmed groups.


    No I am not trying to ascertain that cops don't profile black people by referencing just a survey. I am doing so with 4 or 5 studies. Surveys. Reports. Or whatever terminology you use.


    Oh because you used that more blacks are stopped while driving. The Motorists study?



    The Racial Profiling Myth Debunked.....


    The anti–racial profiling juggernaut has finally met its nemesis: the truth. According to a new study, black drivers on the New Jersey Turnpike are twice as likely to speed as white drivers, and are even more dominant among drivers breaking 90 miles per hour. This finding demolishes the myth of racial profiling. Precisely for that reason, the Bush Justice Department tried to bury the report so the profiling juggernaut could continue its destructive campaign against law enforcement. What happens next will show whether the politics of racial victimization now trump all other national concerns.


    Until now, the anti-police crusade that travels under the banner of “ending racial profiling” has traded on ignorance. Its spokesmen went around the country charging that the police were stopping “too many” minorities for traffic infractions or more serious violations. The reason, explained the anti-cop crowd, was that the police were racist.


    They can argue that no more. The new turnpike study solves one of the most vexing problems in racial profiling analysis: establishing a violator benchmark. To show that the police are stopping “too many” members of a group, you need to know, at a minimum, the rate of lawbreaking among that group—the so-called violator benchmark. Only if the rate of stops or arrests greatly exceeds the rate of criminal behavior should our suspicions be raised.


    But most of the studies that the ACLU and defense attorneys have proffered to show biased behavior by the police only used crude population measures as the benchmark for comparing police activity—arguing, say, that if 24 percent of speeding stops on a particular stretch of highway were of black drivers, in a city or state where blacks make up 19 percent of the population, the police are over-stopping blacks.


    Such an analysis is clearly specious, since it fails to say what percentage of speeders are black, but the data required to rebut it were not available.


    Such investigations violate the reigning fiction in anti–racial profiling rhetoric: that all groups commit crime and other infractions at equal rates. It follows from this central fiction that any differences in the rate at which the police interact with certain citizens result only from police bias, not from differences in citizen behavior.

    Despite the glaring flaws in every racial profiling study heretofore available, the press and the politicians jumped on the anti-profiling bandwagon. How could they lose? They showed their racial sensitivity, and, as for defaming the police without evidence, well, you don’t have to worry that the New York Times will be on your case if you do.


    No institution made more destructive use of racial profiling junk science than the Clinton Justice Department. Armed with the shoddy studies, it slapped costly consent decrees on police departments across the country, requiring them to monitor their officers’ every interaction with minorities, among other managerial intrusions.

    But one thing did not change after the much-publicized consent decree: the proportion of blacks stopped on the turnpike for speeding continued to exceed their proportion in the driving population. Man, those troopers must be either really dumb or really racist! thought most observers, including the New Jersey attorney general, who accused the troopers of persistent profiling.


    Black drivers speed twice as much as white drivers, and speed at reckless levels even more. Blacks are actually stopped less than their speeding behavior would predict—they are 23 percent of those stopped.


    The devastation wrought by this study to the anti-police agenda is catastrophic. It turns out that the police stop blacks more for speeding because they speed more. Race has nothing to do with it.


    The elegant study, designed by the Public Service Research Institute in Maryland, had taken photos with high-speed camera equipment and a radar gun of nearly 40,000 drivers on the turnpike. The researchers then showed the photos to a team of three evaluators, who identified the race of the driver. The evaluators had no idea if the drivers in the photos had been speeding. The photos were then correlated with speeds.


    Matthew Zingraff’s pioneering traffic research in North Carolina, due out in April, as well as sound studies in Pennsylvania, New York, and Miami. Expect many of the results to support the turnpike data, since circumstantial evidence from traffic fatalities and drunk-driving tests have long suggested different driving behaviors among different racial groups. While racist cops undoubtedly do exist, and undoubtedly they are responsible for isolated instances of racial profiling, the evidence shows that systematic racial profiling by police does not exist.....snip~


    https://www.city-journal.org/html/ra...ked-12244.html


    No the Democratic governed and controlled cities, along with their activists implemented change. Reforms to mitigate racism in their police depts.


    What did Ted Miller conclude. As follows.


    “What this study says is that it doesn’t matter what your race is when you’re in a stop and frisk situation or arrest situation with a police officer. Your chance of being injured or killed is the same regardless of race – it’s equally dangerous for everyone,” Miller said.


    Miller said that his findings were consistent with simulation studies that have found “police are no more likely to fire on unarmed blacks than unarmed whites”, citing a 2007 study from the University of Colorado. Researchers there found that, while the general public is more likely to erroneously shoot an unarmed black person in a computer simulation, police officers in the same game did not make the same errors. “Officers showed greater sensitivity,” that study reads, and “this tended to be particularly true with Black targets”. The same study found that both police and the general public were susceptible to anti-black bias in their reaction time.


    A third study, also released this month, from the Center for Policing Equity (PE), a criminal justice thinktank, reached a conclusion similar to Fryer’s. Its data suggests that in most use-of-force situations, black Americans were “more likely than Whites to be targeted for force”, including the drawing and pointing of weapons, use of pepper spray, Tasers and hands. But when it came to lethal force, the mean use of force rate was nearly double for whites versus blacks. The PE data was pulled from Bureau of Justice Statistics numbers for eight locales, and calculated use of force compared against arrests......snip~

    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...counters-study
    Again, you are arguing in a circle. You present authority figures that use stats in a way to make their point, whereas the same stats are used to make the point systemic racism is a real thing. Just because you post it from someone and expect everyone to accept it just because they said it, is an appeal to authority fallacy. Furthermore, if the "Jersey turnpike survey" is the end-all to support your position on systemic racism, why does the government's study not show the same data where blacks speed 2x more than whites? If it is happening in Jersey, then it should be happening everywhere. Is it because maybe it's an outlier or is it because the data methodology was flawed? That is yet another point that maybe you should not put all your eggs in the basket just because an article confirms your bias.

    Finally, your premise is lacking the substancial proof it needs to negate facts and reality. You said "Its data suggests that in most use-of-force situations, black Americans were “more likely than Whites to be targeted for force”, including the drawing and pointing of weapons, use of pepper spray, Tasers and hands." but somehow you think that because "when it came to lethal force, the mean use of force rate was nearly double for whites versus blacks." that somehow that supports your claim that systemic racism doesn't exist. George Floyd was killed, not by lethal force, but by hands (rather knees), so that blows your argument out of the water that only lethal force dictates the lack of systemic racism. Everthing you have posted so far, the profiling, the claiming of criminal rate is justification for profiling or being stopped, etc, only proves that the police target citizens based on race, which is racist in it's implementation. Therefore systemic racism is alive and well in policing. Thank you for making my case.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - J. Davis

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  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    Again, you are arguing in a circle. You present authority figures that use stats in a way to make their point, whereas the same stats are used to make the point systemic racism is a real thing. Just because you post it from someone and expect everyone to accept it just because they said it, is an appeal to authority fallacy. Furthermore, if the "Jersey turnpike survey" is the end-all to support your position on systemic racism, why does the government's study not show the same data where blacks speed 2x more than whites? If it is happening in Jersey, then it should be happening everywhere. Is it because maybe it's an outlier or is it because the data methodology was flawed? That is yet another point that maybe you should not put all your eggs in the basket just because an article confirms your bias.

    Finally, your premise is lacking the substancial proof it needs to negate facts and reality. You said "Its data suggests that in most use-of-force situations, black Americans were “more likely than Whites to be targeted for force”, including the drawing and pointing of weapons, use of pepper spray, Tasers and hands." but somehow you think that because "when it came to lethal force, the mean use of force rate was nearly double for whites versus blacks." that somehow that supports your claim that systemic racism doesn't exist. George Floyd was killed, not by lethal force, but by hands (rather knees), so that blows your argument out of the water that only lethal force dictates the lack of systemic racism. Everthing you have posted so far, the profiling, the claiming of criminal rate is justification for profiling or being stopped, etc, only proves that the police target citizens based on race, which is racist in it's implementation. Therefore systemic racism is alive and well in policing. Thank you for making my case.


    Your argument is debunked by the DOJ and the National Academy of Sciences. Their final conclusions is there is no systemic racism by cops against blacks. It doesn't matter about how you or I arguing all the other studies and looking for flaws in each study. The Bottomline there is no systemic racism by Cops against blacks.
    Moreover if there was Systemic racism by Cops then it would be in the FBI. Intelligence agencies. Armed Forces etc etc.


    There is no way to truly measure racism throughout the years, which is necessary in creating a relationship between racism and economic inequality. Over time, the gap has only widened, and I strongly doubt that America is more racist now than it was under Jim Crow. In fact, under Jim Crow laws, blacks were escaping poverty at a rate much faster than they were after the 1960’s explosion in welfare spending and affirmative action policies.


    Sowell describes this perfectly in his book, Economic Facts and Fallacies,


    “The percentage of blacks with incomes below the poverty line fell most sharply between 1940 and 1960, going from 87 percent to 47 percent over that span, before
    either the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and well before the 1970s, when affirmative action evolved into numerical goals or quotas.”


    But if not racism, what caused the poverty rate to diminish less drastically after such landmark events as the Civil Rights Act than before their existence? In my post, “The Welfare Delusion”, I go into great detail the effects of government aid on the impoverished, without looking at it through the lens of race. But its effect on the black community cannot be understated. The fact that the welfare system has been aimed so heavily at black Americans is pivotal in understanding disparities among them and other races.


    Take the crime rate among blacks, for example. The great sum of this crime is not due to racist cops or a rigged legal system, but to the abundance of fatherless homes......snip~






    Systemic racism by Cops against blacks has been debunked. Perhaps you can say there use to be. But not in this day and age.


    Furthermore. Mac Donald and her study backs the DOJ and the National Academy of Sciences. No evidence by the left has debunked Mac Donald nor the DOJ and the National Academy of Sciences. You thinking you can is an exercise in futility. If you could, you would be famous.
    History does not long Entrust the care of Freedom, to the Weak or Timid!!!!! Dwight D. Eisenhower ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    This is what you said..."Considering most of New York City is Black and Latino" I showed you that is false, Black, Latino, and Asian combined is a slim majority over whites. Whites still outnumber black and Latino.

    Then you said this..."Rather it was applied in High Crime areas which in New York tend to be disproportionately Black and Latino"...it can't be "disproportionate" if the census accuratly reports the numbers.

    So far you have not come close to supporting your premise, you pick a couple of outliers that use statistics to try and paint something that isn't true, then when I challenge you on them, you just repeat what you've already posted. Even the words you use to defend your argument only strengthens mine because you attempt to make it about the police having "cause" to profile based upon the crime rate of blacks, which laughingly proves that systemic racism is used by the police.
    Yet you didn't show I was false. You used the 2010 Census. Here is what you said.


    Originally Posted by Safety But it being a moral question only strengthens the argument that the police are exhibiting systemic racism. Plus, I don't think your assertion about the demographics of NYC is accurate, according to the 2010 census, Whites made up 44.6%, Blacks 27%, and Hispanics 28.6%. (USC) However, moving on...in this study, it determined that..."The results provide evidence of a significant bias in the killing of unarmed black Americans relative to unarmed white Americans, in that the probability of being {black, unarmed, and shot by police} is about 3.49 times the probability of being {white, unarmed, and shot by police} on average. Furthermore, the results of multi-level modeling show that there exists significant heterogeneity across counties in the extent of racial bias in police shootings, with some counties showing relative risk ratios of 20 to 1 or more." (Ross) which puts it at odds with your original source. So, at this moment we have conflicting data sets in regards to the question of if there is systemic racism in the police, but based upon the additional sources I provided, it proves that systemic racism exists in police procedures.

    United States Census. 2010. 2010 Demographic Profile Data NYC. https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/planning...sf1_dp_nyc.pdf
    Ross, Cody T. PLOS ONE. 2015. A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0141854


    That was your response to my saying that Blacks and Latinos make up the majority of the Population of NYC.

    Now you don't seem to read so well.


    Non-Hispanic Whites Are Now a ... - The New York Times

    https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/28/nyregion/28nycensus.html
    Mar 28, 2011 · For the first time, black, Hispanic and Asian residents of New York City and its suburbs are a majority of the metropolitan area’s more than 19 million residents, according to the 2010 census


    So no.....you didn't prove that was false.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Your argument is debunked by the DOJ and the National Academy of Sciences. Their final conclusions is there is no systemic racism by cops against blacks. It doesn't matter about how you or I arguing all the other studies and looking for flaws in each study. The Bottomline there is no systemic racism by Cops against blacks.
    Moreover if there was Systemic racism by Cops then it would be in the FBI. Intelligence agencies. Armed Forces etc etc.


    There is no way to truly measure racism throughout the years, which is necessary in creating a relationship between racism and economic inequality. Over time, the gap has only widened, and I strongly doubt that America is more racist now than it was under Jim Crow. In fact, under Jim Crow laws, blacks were escaping poverty at a rate much faster than they were after the 1960’s explosion in welfare spending and affirmative action policies.


    Sowell describes this perfectly in his book, Economic Facts and Fallacies,


    “The percentage of blacks with incomes below the poverty line fell most sharply between 1940 and 1960, going from 87 percent to 47 percent over that span, before
    either the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and well before the 1970s, when affirmative action evolved into numerical goals or quotas.”


    But if not racism, what caused the poverty rate to diminish less drastically after such landmark events as the Civil Rights Act than before their existence? In my post, “The Welfare Delusion”, I go into great detail the effects of government aid on the impoverished, without looking at it through the lens of race. But its effect on the black community cannot be understated. The fact that the welfare system has been aimed so heavily at black Americans is pivotal in understanding disparities among them and other races.


    Take the crime rate among blacks, for example. The great sum of this crime is not due to racist cops or a rigged legal system, but to the abundance of fatherless homes......snip~






    Systemic racism by Cops against blacks has been debunked. Perhaps you can say there use to be. But not in this day and age.


    Furthermore. Mac Donald and her study backs the DOJ and the National Academy of Sciences. No evidence by the left has debunked Mac Donald nor the DOJ and the National Academy of Sciences. You thinking you can is an exercise in futility. If you could, you would be famous.
    Then let me be clear again, the fallacy you are undertaking does not prove systemic racism doesn't exist, all it does is show the sources you are using are cherry-picking statistics to formulate their point. The same data they are arguing and you are arguing, clearly shows that there is a systemic racism problem. The mere fact that police use race as a profile to target, harass, interact with someone, is exactly what systemic racism means. Either we are all individuals free to pursue the constitutional right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, or we are bound to only enjoy that right as long as someone, that shares the same skin color, doesn't act criminally. Sorry, but like I said earlier, so far you are only arguing to justify the use of systemic racism, not arguing to disprove it exists.
    “Conscientiously believing that the proper condition of the negro is slavery, or a complete subjection to the white man, and entertaining the belief that the day is not distant when the old Union will be restored with slavery nationally declared to be the proper condition of all of African descent, and in view of the future harmony and progress of all the States of America, I have been induced to issue this address, so that there may be no misunderstanding in the future”

    - J. Davis

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