What Is Marxism?

[Mister D]

So much for that...

[Dr. Who]

Link?

https://www.totallytimelines.com/tsa...-1855-to-1922/


I think other sources quote a death toll closer to 500K.

[MisterVeritis]

By "State control" I'm sure you mean regulations: a very Randian mindset. Capitalism fits into economic theory through market dynamics and controls on your end of said market. We have seen over and over again that laissez -faire as a practice in capitalism just dos not work and that those without wind up footing the bill through ruin and starvation, hence Marxism. Capitalism consistently eats too much and throws the banana peels into it's own path by allowing the greedy and the crooks to run amok.

It has never worked out that way.

Capitalism, at its simplest is you doing what is best for you while I do what is best for me. Its secret sauces is freedom. Marxism lacks freedom.

[zelmo1234]

That was pretty nasty. For your information, this little socialist works 60-80 hours a week climbing through hot attics and digging trenches so business owners and homeowners in the state of Louisiana (and occasionally Mississippi) can feel safe on their own property. You come do what I do for a day and then try talking $#@! about it.

Well I hope that you are sharing the wealth with those that don't want to work, they deserve it you know.

[zelmo1234]

Spot on.

If anyone is interest give a listen to Richard D. Wolff, perhaps the leading scholar on Marxism and a Marxist himself. The first 15 minutes of the video below is all you need to listen to. Of course, you need to get past his pompous, self-righteous, mocking attitude. But it takes you from a basic model of capitalism, to fixing it by replacing exploitive owners with oppressed workers and and how utopia will just follow.

Ok lets say that you replace the Oppressive Mean Owner with the Oppressed Worker!

1st Question are you planning on Killing the owner and taking all of his or her money?

Now you have these Oppressed workers and they are now running the company, of which they have NO idea how to run.

2nd question, if employee's were so great at running companies, why is the bankruptcy rates of Employee owned businesses so high?

If I was a Customer of said company, and I liked the Quality and Price of the product and the customer service of the company Why would I believe that it would stay the same, and without the leadership were is quality control and innovation going to come from

Question #3 are you planning on telling the workers that they can't have a raise because if you gave them a raise you would have to increase the prices of the product and that would cause the company to loose money

Now that the employee's are running the company and the Utopia has begun, what are you going to create so when the current product line becomes obsolete, you have new and exciting products to bring to the market, and a great launch marketing campaign to get the ball rolling

Question 4 If the Utopia is going to exist, the workers are going to demand more, and that will cause less revenue, so there will be no money for R&D. Where is this new found utopia going to get the money to create new products and pay the people that need to invent them?

I await a reasonable answer

[Chris]

Ok lets say that you replace the Oppressive Mean Owner with the Oppressed Worker!

1st Question are you planning on Killing the owner and taking all of his or her money?

Now you have these Oppressed workers and they are now running the company, of which they have NO idea how to run.

2nd question, if employee's were so great at running companies, why is the bankruptcy rates of Employee owned businesses so high?

If I was a Customer of said company, and I liked the Quality and Price of the product and the customer service of the company Why would I believe that it would stay the same, and without the leadership were is quality control and innovation going to come from

Question #3 are you planning on telling the workers that they can't have a raise because if you gave them a raise you would have to increase the prices of the product and that would cause the company to loose money

Now that the employee's are running the company and the Utopia has begun, what are you going to create so when the current product line becomes obsolete, you have new and exciting products to bring to the market, and a great launch marketing campaign to get the ball rolling

Question 4 If the Utopia is going to exist, the workers are going to demand more, and that will cause less revenue, so there will be no money for R&D. Where is this new found utopia going to get the money to create new products and pay the people that need to invent them?

I await a reasonable answer

Ok lets say that you replace the Oppressive Mean Owner with the Oppressed Worker!

1st Question are you planning on Killing the owner and taking all of his or her money?

Now you have these Oppressed workers and they are now running the company, of which they have NO idea how to run.

A couple years back I had a discussion with Kilgram, as socialist, and Who. We reached the point of replacing owners with workers and I asked what if the owner refuses? And the answer was to use force, whatever force is necessary. I mean, you're supposed to wait for the collapse of capitalism, but when it doesn't well, even Marx used force.

They neither have any idea how to run a company nor would it be possible to so so democratically or by committee, or how to trade with other companies.

2nd question, if employee's were so great at running companies, why is the bankruptcy rates of Employee owned businesses so high?

If I was a Customer of said company, and I liked the Quality and Price of the product and the customer service of the company Why would I believe that it would stay the same, and without the leadership were is quality control and innovation going to come from

Because they neither know nor ore capable of running a company.

Knowing that, you should not expect anything good to come out of the worker-owned company. You'd take your business elsewhere. If there was an elsewhere amid all the failing worker-run companies. The system would collapse.

Question #3 are you planning on telling the workers that they can't have a raise because if you gave them a raise you would have to increase the prices of the product and that would cause the company to loose money

Now that the employee's are running the company and the Utopia has begun, what are you going to create so when the current product line becomes obsolete, you have new and exciting products to bring to the market, and a great launch marketing campaign to get the ball rolling

Well, if production quality and quantity go down then the workers will have to accept loss just like the ex-owner risked.

I think the whole incentive for innovation goes out the door.

Question 4 If the Utopia is going to exist, the workers are going to demand more, and that will cause less revenue, so there will be no money for R&D. Where is this new found utopia going to get the money to create new products and pay the people that need to invent them?

Utopias by definition do not exist.

I await a reasonable answer

Hopefully my answers were reasonable and honest.

Socialism is nonsense. A pipe dream.

Don't mistake my explaining socialism for my advocating it.


OTOH, do we want to serve capitalism? On a global scale?

[Green Arrow]

@FindersKeepers sorry for the delay, ended up working a lot of overtime this week, lol.

The Theory of Distribution as it exists in capitalism is limited to income taxes, although it can also be applied to charitable giving that's thought of as required, such as tithing to one's church.

The problem with Marx's idea of distribution is that dominates labor, and as such, reduces motivation and discourages entrepreneurship and invention. Even the capitalist tax system, which is deplorable, still allows for the freedom of individual business creation, which is the backbone of capitalism.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "dominates labor." I'm also not really sure it reduces motivation, or discourages entrepreneurship and invention. In Cuba, for example, they have made a number of pretty neat inventions, engineering marvels, and clever DIY projects. As this article reports, the combination of free education leading to a lot of Cubans holding engineering degrees and the boycott that kept them from receiving trade goods forced them to get creative, and they came up with some good stuff.

You also have the case of Nicola Tesla, who invented the brilliant things he invented to give people free electricity. "Free" isn't a profit motive.

In the emboldened, therein lies its downfall. Only when humans (not 'laborers' or 'workers') have the freedom to work toward their own goals, rather than the goals of community government, can they be free.

People already labor for the good of their communities and themselves. Marx isn't describing anything unprecedented there. The difference is, instead of the fruits of your labor going to line the pockets of Jeff Bezos or fund a military project for Virginia when you live in Tennessee (or wherever, just an example, lol), it's going to improve your community. That's what is meant here. He explains it a little better in the Critique than I do, lol.

Marx's LTV is unsustainable because it removes the motivation for the inventor or entrepreneur to excel. It transfers the value from the one who comes up with the idea or the business to the peon who produces nothing but the labor required to produce the product or service. This, essentially, is the biggest downfall of Marx theory and it greatly slows down technical progression.

But, nothing you've posted here is new. This is all Marxism 101, and anyone who's graduated from high school (should) know this stuff.

That's a fair criticism. I don't think it necessarily must be that way, however. Jeff Bezos doesn't stop being the wealthiest man in the world just because he pays his employees a fairer wage based on the work they do and the value they produce. He'll still be the wealthiest man in the world, with more money than he will ever be able to do anything with. He could almost single-handedly save capitalism by just raising his employees' wages and giving them more of a stake in the success of the company. Why not do it?