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Thread: Masks should not be a political issue, dammit!

  1. #131
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    Masks should not be a political issue, dammit!
    Of course it should not be. But the moron in chief, brilliant man that he is, refuses to believe science and so his cult will follow suit. Despite the belief that NIH, WHO, CDC, Virologists, 100 other countries are all in on some sort of conpsiracy to ruin the the amazing Donnie, I am the greatest, economy, masks work. And we are #1 for a reason in terms of new cases of the virus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoosier8 View Post
    The masks people wear have no seal.
    I know, which is why I advocate for people to be taught how to improve the seal with three simple rubber bands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephenpe View Post
    Of course it should not be. But the moron in chief, brilliant man that he is, refuses to believe science and so his cult will follow suit. Despite the belief that NIH, WHO, CDC, Virologists, 100 other countries are all in on some sort of conpsiracy to ruin the the amazing Donnie, I am the greatest, economy, masks work. And we are #1 for a reason in terms of new cases of the virus.
    How does wearing a mask in public protect people in nursing homes?
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterField View Post
    I know, which is why I advocate for people to be taught how to improve the seal with three simple rubber bands.
    I advocate for you to take responsibility for yourself and to leave other people alone.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    So let me sum this up.

    The CDC was wrong in the beginning on travel and on masks.
    The WHO lied about human to human transmission for China and ignored reportes from Taiwan
    Trump was right on travel to infected areas.
    The CDC and WHO did not see Europe as the entry to the USA for COVID
    The medical community was wrong on ventilators.
    Trump was not correct on the use of HCQ in the opinion of the CDC and WHO
    Governors are responsible for opening and closing in their states

    BUT...because of this you say you will not vote for Trump?

    Are you just mad at the disease and want to take it out on the President?
    What would yu have expected Biden or Obama to have done better especially after they failed to react quickly on Sars or Ebola?

    In this case hindsight is not even 20/20.
    As far as Susan Rice goes - In 1996, as the Clinton National Security Council’s senior director for African affairs, she successfully urged the Clinton White House to refuse a Sudanese offer to turn al Qaeda’s Osama bin Laden over to the United States. The WTC and 16 years of war resulted. Benghazi was the least important of her blunders and that was huge.
    OK, I'll revise my views on Susan Rice. Frankly (and you can call me ignorant) I was not aware of that.

    As of for the other things you said, most are true, some I'd dispute. The travel ban, for example, was very incomplete with an estimated 40,000 arrivals from China being still allowed (Chinese US permanent residents, American citizens and their Chinese first degree relatives, etc.) with no testing or quarantine. These people traveled to points all over the country. The initial ban on Europe for some incomprehensible reason (which I believe to be ideological since Trump sees the UK prime minister as an ideological brother) didn't include the UK, which is one of the epicenters. Then later it did.

    Trump was definitely not correct on the use of HCQ in my opinion too, not just the CDC and WHO. I don't want to open another Pandora box but I'd be able to discuss this topic for dozens of my usually over-long posts, to explain why I believe he was wrong. Yes, there was a fake, fraudulent study discrediting HCQ and that's despicable, but there are plenty of other good quality and unbiased studies (to the degree that anything can be unbiased, these days) that do not support the use of HCQ for COVID-19. The protocol I consider the best, the EVMS, used to indicate HCQ. Now it has been removed from it, and specific wording was added to avoid it for COVID-19. Yes, Trump jumped ahead of science on this one, and frankly, I didn't appreciate that he was dispensing medical advice to the population "you have nothing to lose, take it" from the White House press room. Trump is not an MD. Anyway, I'm already opening this Pandora box... but frankly, I don't know if I'll have the desire and the energy to start it all over again and explain in medical detail why HCQ for COVID-19 is not a good idea (while it remains a good idea for lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, and malaria). I've debated it too much in another forum I used to be a member of before I joined here, and I'm sick and tired of this topic. But if you want the short version of my opinion, yes, Trump was wrong on HCQ.

    The adminstration was also wrong in the issue of testing, at the beginning. It's been corrected (regarding authorizations for flawed test kits). Recently Trump tried to downplay the important of testing, and I didn't like it. Fortunately he reversed course and I praised him for it.

    So, it's not like the Trump administration didn't make mistakes.

    Why do you insist with the governors part? Have I ever exempted them from their boneheaded actions? No. I said I blame them too.

    Wait, are you using the "But Obama" defense on me??? FYI, Obama is no longer the president of the United States and he is not a candidate (actually constitutionally he can't be) so, who cares what Obama did or didn't do for SARS or Ebola??? I mean, you can lament it, but it doesn't solve the problem of what to do next for COVID-19.

    I could say more but I'm out of time. See ya.
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  8. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterField View Post
    Of course. Humans are fallible. When did I say that there was no error whatsoever? The initial push for early invasive ventilation has actually contributed to the death of many, because the high pressure ventilation was harming the COVID-19-compromised lungs.

    That's normal in a new disease. There wasn't enough time to study it as we got slammed with a surge in cases of something very new.

    Most diseases have existed for millennia and we've fine-tuned and developed state-of-the-art protocols and treating algorithms. But COVID-19 is new. We are not Gods. What did you expect?

    Do you think that you are teaching me something by telling me that doctors are fallible? Refer to post #57 where I said this, in reference to doctors: "many are wrong." Does it seem to you like a statement that someone who believes doctors are infallible, would issue??
    When did you say there was no error? You said "my guys are right, your guys are wrong". What the hell are you talking about?

    Lol, and I seriously doubt anyone could "teach" you anything. You obviously know everything already.
    Last edited by countryboy; 07-02-2020 at 01:57 PM.
    Cutesy Time is OVER

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    Quote Originally Posted by countryboy View Post
    When did you say there was no error? You said "my guys are right, your guys are wrong". What the hell are you talking about?
    I said, "that one guy is right. Some other doctors are wrong." (and I stand behind him being right; what he said is very simple, that masks should be a matter of public health rather than political). Then you tried to teach me a lesson on how doctors were wrong about ventilators (something I know very well, and I never implied that doctors can't be wrong, much the opposite).

    Lol, and I seriously doubt anyone could "teach" you anything. You obviously know everything already.
    I do not know "everything" already (especially, everything that doesn't pertain to the medical field - for example I keep asking Peter about legal stuff, saying I'm poorly equipped to understand the Law like he does, obviously, so, no, I can be quite humble about what I don't know) but I do know a whole lot about medical care and also about the scientific side of Medicine. On the other hand, even this "whole lot" is not "everything" given that Medicine is a vast, vast, vast field.

    About being humble, it's interesting that in THE VERY POST ABOVE YOURS I said this, to Carolina73: "Frankly (and you can call me ignorant) I was not aware of that."

    Does it sound to you like something a "know-it-all" type would say? Not to forget, just a few posts ago you praised me for my saying "I stand corrected and I apologize for my mistake."

    Not to forget #2, it wasn't even the only time, in this very thread. See post #40. I said "
    I misspoke on this one. [...] You are right about that. Sorry for the misrepresentation."

    I mean, the evidence is that, "au contraire", I'm quite humble, but somehow you want to color me as an arrogant "know-it-all."

    ---------

    Here is what is happening. For some strange reason you pegged me as a "liberal" (something I absolutely am not) and you started this antagonistic attitude against me. Anything I say, you try to paint me with the colors you've attributed to me. That's fine. You have a right to your opinions of me (and I will NEVER fight back by engaging in personal attacks; not my style), but I'm just saying, sorry, but those opinions are inaccurate. I can't even comprehend how someone who in ONE thread acknowledged 3 times making mistakes and not knowing something, can be pegged as arrogant. Strange.


    Last edited by CenterField; 07-02-2020 at 02:32 PM.
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    carolina73's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterField View Post
    OK, I'll revise my views on Susan Rice. Frankly (and you can call me ignorant) I was not aware of that.

    As of for the other things you said, most are true, some I'd dispute. The travel ban, for example, was very incomplete with an estimated 40,000 arrivals from China being still allowed (Chinese US permanent residents, American citizens and their Chinese first degree relatives, etc.) with no testing or quarantine. These people traveled to points all over the country. The initial ban on Europe for some incomprehensible reason (which I believe to be ideological since Trump sees the UK prime minister as an ideological brother) didn't include the UK, which is one of the epicenters. Then later it did.

    Trump was definitely not correct on the use of HCQ in my opinion too, not just the CDC and WHO. I don't want to open another Pandora box but I'd be able to discuss this topic for dozens of my usually over-long posts, to explain why I believe he was wrong. Yes, there was a fake, fraudulent study discrediting HCQ and that's despicable, but there are plenty of other good quality and unbiased studies (to the degree that anything can be unbiased, these days) that do not support the use of HCQ for COVID-19. The protocol I consider the best, the EVMS, used to indicate HCQ. Now it has been removed from it, and specific wording was added to avoid it for COVID-19. Yes, Trump jumped ahead of science on this one, and frankly, I didn't appreciate that he was dispensing medical advice to the population "you have nothing to lose, take it" from the White House press room. Trump is not an MD. Anyway, I'm already opening this Pandora box... but frankly, I don't know if I'll have the desire and the energy to start it all over again and explain in medical detail why HCQ for COVID-19 is not a good idea (while it remains a good idea for lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, and malaria). I've debated it too much in another forum I used to be a member of before I joined here, and I'm sick and tired of this topic. But if you want the short version of my opinion, yes, Trump was wrong on HCQ.

    The adminstration was also wrong in the issue of testing, at the beginning. It's been corrected (regarding authorizations for flawed test kits). Recently Trump tried to downplay the important of testing, and I didn't like it. Fortunately he reversed course and I praised him for it.

    So, it's not like the Trump administration didn't make mistakes.

    Why do you insist with the governors part? Have I ever exempted them from their boneheaded actions? No. I said I blame them too.

    Wait, are you using the "But Obama" defense on me??? FYI, Obama is no longer the president of the United States and he is not a candidate (actually constitutionally he can't be) so, who cares what Obama did or didn't do for SARS or Ebola??? I mean, you can lament it, but it doesn't solve the problem of what to do next for COVID-19.

    I could say more but I'm out of time. See ya.
    How was Trump wrong on testing. He didn't prevent it and they supplied as many tests as they could after the CDC blew the first batch. They did not even have enough to test all the hospitalized patients. The CFC also insisted that they be the only lab to process the tests.

    I keep hearing this about testing but then the states did not even use them after they received them.

    I still hear no one say what they would have done different as President.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    How was Trump wrong on testing. He didn't prevent it and they supplied as many tests as they could after the CDC blew the first batch. They did not even have enough to test all the hospitalized patients. The CFC also insisted that they be the only lab to process the tests.

    I keep hearing this about testing but then the states did not even use them after they received them.

    I still hear no one say what they would have done different as President.
    Maybe I mean the Trump Administration, not merely Donald J. Trump. Are you aware that the director of the CDC is a Trump loyalist, directly appointed by Trump? Maybe you conveniently see the CDC as some bunch of incompetent leftist scientists... I don't know. But sorry, buddy. The current CDC is part of the Trump Administration.

    And see, the very quote of mine I produced, I said "the administration was also wrong in the issue of testing." I didn't say Donald J. Trump. But see, the buck stops somewhere, no? Might that place where the buck should stop, be the Oval Office by any chance? You know, because you said Obama didn't do this or that... I doubt that Obama personally went to see the Ebola and SARS patients... but if you think his administration failed to act correctly on that, you send the blame directly to the Oval Office... and then you find it strange that I say "the administration was also wrong..." etc.??? Blaming me for blaming Trump when in this case I didn't even issue his name???

    And then what did I say next? "at the beginning - it's been corrected." Why didn't you highlight this part? Is it selective quoting? Because I'm being fair here. I am giving credit where credit is due. I'm not the TDS type. In this very post you quoted, I said I praise Trump from having reversed course on trying to restrict testing. Actually in that thread if you want to pull it up and verify, I used these specific words: "thank you, Mr. President." Does it sound to you like something someone with TDS would say???

    Now, just like I'm fair to him in praising his successes (and said, if he gets this vaccine going, he's a lock for my vote), I'm also not shy about criticizing him for what HE does that is wrong (in my opinion). You may have noticed that I didn't say "the administration" when I said that Trump was wrong on HCQ. Why? Because that came directly from the horse's mouth. You can check the official White House transcript of the press briefing on April 6 (go to the White House website). Use a word search function because it's long, but you will find there the words, regarding HCQ, "you have nothing to lose. Take it." THAT IS A MEDICAL ADVICE. Saying to someone, "take this medicine," can't be construed as anything other than a medical advice. Just... Trump is not an MD, and by the way, it turns out that the advice is wrong. Not only HCQ is not effective against the SARS-CoV-2 in-vivo, but also, yes, you do have something to lose... as in, your life, because experience has been showing that HCQ is particularly cardiotoxic for COVID-19 patients, including, leading to some fatal arrhythmias and sudden death, in patients who might have otherwise recovered from the virus.

    I've said it elsewhere. Someone wants to dispense medical advice? Cool. Do go first to 4 years of pre-med, 4 years of medical school (warning: getting in is very difficult, and the student loans are huge), and 4 years of residency training, and don't forget to sit for the USMLE steps 1, 2, and 3 (hugely difficult), and obtain a license with one of the State Medical Boards. THEN and only then, you're legally allowed to dispense medical advice. Period. So, yes, he was wrong about that, plain and simple, and I don't know why criticizing it makes of me a partisan hack or a liberal, like some of you all have said.

    -------

    What someone would have done different as president, you highlight.

    First, I haven't even ruled out yet that Trump did/is doing is just fine, under the circumstances. Remember our first conversation about my November vote? I said, *IF* this thing *becomes* a train wreck, I may want a change in leadership.

    Second, I fully realize that Monday Morning Quarterbacking is unfair. I've said before, I don't blame Trump for the virus being here. I think with the exception of the ridiculously tiny island nation of Vanuatu, which shut down all communications with the outside world (no more airplanes, no ships or boats) - I think it was Vanuatu, if I recall correctly; if not, one of the other tiny island nations - no nation has been able to stop the virus from going in.

    But I do have some ideas about how it could have been handled a bit better.

    One - never minimize it. Never say "flu" or "hoax" - from the very beginning, when other nations were already being shut down, when it was already evident that a virus with scary characteristics (high R0 number, long period of asymptomatic transmission, apparent case-fatality rate much higher than the flu, no vaccine, no effective treatment), I'd have addressed the nation as "there is a threat that we need to take very, very seriously." It wasn't good that the administration allowed the Dems to hijack the narrative and to make it politicized, like the Dems saying it was serious (some of them; minus for example that idiot DeBlasio and that other idiot Cuomo) and the administration dismissing it. Had Trump *from the beginning* taken the lead on calling it serious, he'd have emptied that talking point from the Dems, and his followers might have taken it more seriously, too.

    Two: Aggressive testing and quarantine at the border, *including* American citizens returning from China. Sorry, but that was never done, and was likely the vector for the multiple entry points and multiple epicenters that made reasonable epidemiological control quite impossible, or at least, harder and less efficient than it could have been.

    Three: Engage in a war-time effort to *domestically* produce PPE and test kits by the hundreds of millions without the need to depend on imports from China. This should have been a top priority from the very beginning, or actually even before the epidemic hit. There's been warnings before about the "not if, but when" an epidemic hits, and we were caught pants down with a ridiculously low number of domestically-made PPE, and a test shortage.

    Four: Lead the nation on the issue of lockdowns. Sure, it's the governors, but it's not like the freaking President of the United States of America doesn't have influence. Instead of press briefing always full of self-praise (while I can't see how a country with 4% of the world's population but 25% of the world's COVID-19 deaths can be seen as successfully dealing with it), it would have been better to address the nation in prime time and say "We're on this together, Republicans and Democrats, Conservatives and Liberals, and we need to implement a consistent, nation-wide effort of epidemiological control, and do it WELL so that it can be done for a short time. Governors are responsible for this but I urge all governors, Democrats and Republicans alike, to listen right now and work together, because the virus doesn't know state borders." I mean, the White House came out with some very good guidelines... then tossed them... then adopted them again... it was chaotic. I remember Trump praising the guidelines for careful reopening, the ones that his very own administration put together, then THE VERY NEXT DAY twitting "Liberate Michigan" and "Liberate... (two other states - unsurprisingly, Dem states)." All while simultaneously saying that he thought that Georgia was opening up too soon. So what is it, Mr. President??? That was a mess. The responsibility is the governor's, but leadership matters, and consistent, coherent leadership matters even more. Germany is also a federation. Local officials are ultimately responsible. But Angela Merkel obviously exercised much more consistent leadership.

    Five: Use better the economic rescue package to actually protect payroll and avoid lay-offs and unemployment, instead of making a point of sending $1,200 to individual Americans, duly accompanied by a letter with Trump's signature (he actually wanted to sign the checks themselves). So, those $1,200 are sent and spent... then what? No, much better would have to give grants to businesses large and small on the condition of no lay-offs (that's what some European countries did, and came up with a much smaller unemployment).

    Six: Refrain from undermining testing. Again, thankfully he reversed this boneheaded move pretty quickly and I praised him for the reversal.

    Seven: Lead by example on the matter of masks and other harmless epidemiological measures. Address the nation frequently, again avoiding the hijacking of the narrative by the Dems and the politicizing of the issue, saying something like "my fellow Americans, let's not make of masks a political symbol of anything; it's a public health device, period; no more, no less. If we all wear masks, there is a proven decline in community contagion seen in many scientific studies. It's not that inconvenient. Look, I'm wearing mine. We can reopen faster and get the economy going faster if we all engage in sensible and harmless precautions like this one. While I oppose mandatory orders because God blessed us with a free country, let's all voluntarily work together for our common good; in the past wars, we were united in fighting our nation's enemies. This virus is invisible but is an enemy. Let's beat it together, united."

    Eight - Re-hire the unemployed people and train them to be testers and contact tracers. Get an army of tracers, to decrease the uncontrollable spread, so that asymptomatic and mildly symptomatic cases are found more easily and taken out of circulation, decreasing the overall spread (which was the successful strategy employed by South Korea).

    Nine - Refrain from issuing medical advice especially on unproven treatments - HCQ... disinfectant and UV lights being used internally... LOL. The correct attitude about ANY treatment, by a non-MD president, should have been "I hear that there are treatments being looked at; I hope they succeed, but I have no advice on this as I lack the expertise, so I'm passing the microphone to these officials who are part of my team and are medical doctors, for comments."

    So, nine different attitudes, for starters... Most of it is exactly what other, more successful countries (as far as this pandemic is concerned), have done. When we look at the graphs comparing those countries with hours, obviously we're not doing so well. We are the freaking USA. The richest and most sophisticated country on Earth, and we're doing worse than just about anybody with a few exceptions, and you guys don't see that something went horribly wrong???

    Would Joe Biden do any better? I don't know. Probably not. He's kinda goofy. I hope that if he wins, he (or people around him, guiding him) selects a good cabinet that comes up with a coherent plan. But then, the issue has been so politicized already, that whatever he proposed, the other side would make a point of undermining anyway...

    The bottom line is: our divisiveness is what doomed us. If we continue much longer to be divided like we've been, with all these irreconcilable differences, we'll soon decline, from being the top country in the world, to... not. To some lower position. Somewhere down there. I don't want that.
    Last edited by CenterField; 07-02-2020 at 03:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CenterField View Post
    I said, "that one guy is right. Some other doctors are wrong." (and I stand behind him being right; what he said is very simple, that masks should be a matter of public health rather than political). Then you tried to teach me a lesson on how doctors were wrong about ventilators (something I know very well, and I never implied that doctors can't be wrong, much the opposite).


    I do not know "everything" already (especially, everything that doesn't pertain to the medical field - for example I keep asking Peter about legal stuff, saying I'm poorly equipped to understand the Law like he does, obviously, so, no, I can be quite humble about what I don't know) but I do know a whole lot about medical care and also about the scientific side of Medicine. On the other hand, even this "whole lot" is not "everything" given that Medicine is a vast, vast, vast field.

    About being humble, it's interesting that in THE VERY POST ABOVE YOURS I said this, to Carolina73: "Frankly (and you can call me ignorant) I was not aware of that."

    Does it sound to you like something a "know-it-all" type would say? Not to forget, just a few posts ago you praised me for my saying "I stand corrected and I apologize for my mistake."

    Not to forget #2, it wasn't even the only time, in this very thread. See post #40. I said "
    I misspoke on this one. [...] You are right about that. Sorry for the misrepresentation."

    I mean, the evidence is that, "au contraire", I'm quite humble, but somehow you want to color me as an arrogant "know-it-all."

    ---------

    Here is what is happening. For some strange reason you pegged me as a "liberal" (something I absolutely am not) and you started this antagonistic attitude against me. Anything I say, you try to paint me with the colors you've attributed to me. That's fine. You have a right to your opinions of me (and I will NEVER fight back by engaging in personal attacks; not my style), but I'm just saying, sorry, but those opinions are inaccurate. I can't even comprehend how someone who in ONE thread acknowledged 3 times making mistakes and not knowing something, can be pegged as arrogant. Strange.


    Alright alright, I give. I've been giving you a hard time, I apologize. I don't think you are a bad person, and I think your heart is in the right place. I will make an effort to be nicer. Sorry.
    Cutesy Time is OVER

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    CenterField (07-02-2020)

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