To The Liberals

[Chris]

I don't think there needs to be any responses. Bravo to her.

I'll respond with this, that I would expect a moderate to criticize the left as much as they criticize the right. I don't see much of that. I see self-identified moderates espousing leftist ideas and criticizing the right. I guess to me that means that just because there are ideas further to the left of yours, that doesn't make you a moderate, just a little less left.

[Perianne]

I'll respond with this, that I would expect a moderate to criticize the left as much as they criticize the right. I don't see much of that. I see self-identified moderates espousing leftist ideas and criticizing the right. I guess to me that means that just because there are ideas further to the left of yours, that doesn't make you a moderate, just a little less left.

To me, she is moving to the right a little bit, OR, is not following the radical leftists. Those are good things. Every journey starts with a single step.

She right now is what the average Republican will be in 25 years.

[Chris]

To me, she is moving to the right a little bit, OR, is not following the radical leftists. Those are good things. Every journey starts with a single step.

She right now is what the average Republican will be in 25 years.

True, given the left keeps marching left and the right keeps compromising.

[Standing Wolf]

I used to listen to Limbaugh on a regular basis - until he insinuated himself so far up the Bush family's collective butt that he lost any semblance of objectivity and fairness he ever possessed - and he was one of those who always insisted that Moderates either didn't really exist or that they were simply people who were "on the fence" about everything and had no true convictions. I recall that once a woman caller who identified herself as a Moderate was describing what she thought about various issues, and she listed a number of traditionally conservative views but ended by stating that she was pro-choice and in favor of same-sex marriage. Limbaugh's response (paraphrasing, but very close) was, "You don't sound like a Moderate - you sound like a typical liberal to me".

Just as I have learned from personal experience that some on the social left will never acknowledge your self-identification as a "liberal" unless you pass certain ideological tests - the usual shibboleths being guns, immigration, White privilege and something having to do with sex or gender - there are positions that if you take them a certain percentage of self-identified conservatives will never acknowledge that you are a conservative. Of course this doesn't affect the fact of someone actually being a Moderate in any way; the readiness or reluctance of those who self-identify very strongly as either liberal or conservative doesn't change the reality.

[IMPress Polly]

To me, she is moving to the right a little bit, OR, is not following the radical leftists. Those are good things. Every journey starts with a single step.

She right now is what the average Republican will be in 25 years.

Chris wrote:
I'll respond with this, that I would expect a moderate to criticize the left as much as they criticize the right. I don't see much of that. I see self-identified moderates espousing leftist ideas and criticizing the right. I guess to me that means that just because there are ideas further to the left of yours, that doesn't make you a moderate, just a little less left.

Standing Wolf wrote:
I used to listen to Limbaugh on a regular basis - until he insinuated himself so far up the Bush family's collective butt that he lost any semblance of objectivity and fairness he ever possessed - and he was one of those who always insisted that Moderates either didn't really exist or that they were simply people who were "on the fence" about everything and had no true convictions. I recall that once a woman caller who identified herself as a Moderate was describing what she thought about various issues, and she listed a number of traditionally conservative views but ended by stating that she was pro-choice and in favor of same-sex marriage. Limbaugh's response (paraphrasing, but very close) was, "You don't sound like a Moderate - you sound like a typical liberal to me".

Just as I have learned from personal experience that some on the social left will never acknowledge your self-identification as a "liberal" unless you pass certain ideological tests - the usual shibboleths being guns, immigration, White privilege and something having to do with sex or gender - there are positions that if you take them a certain percentage of self-identified conservatives will never acknowledge that you are a conservative. Of course this doesn't affect the fact of someone actually being a Moderate in any way; the readiness or reluctance of those who self-identify very strongly as either liberal or conservative doesn't change the reality.

I don't perceive the term moderate as meaning dispassionate. To me it just means holding a combination of views that fail to cleanly land you in the progressive or conservative columns. Since I'm being systematically excluded from progressive circles, I feel that the most appropriate term for someone like me at this point would be 'left-leaning moderate' or 'moderately left wing', something like that.

As I mentioned before, I don't perceive myself as being on a journey rightward per se, although I do listen to conservative-minded people more often today than I traditionally have, admittedly. However, you may be right, Perianne, about me currently being where the Republican Party lands in another 25 years, possibly, as I have seen those polls indicating that younger Republicans are leaning more to the left than their elders on questions of economic policy. I've seen those polls indicating that more than 40% of Republicans under the age of 30 support policy ideas like Medicare for all, a $15/hour minimum wage, and some aspects of the Green New Deal, for instance, are more open to gay rights and such, yeah. Maybe that trajectory will continue in the future, who knows? Or it could just be a momentary phenomenon. As things presently stand though, there remains a tremendous distance between where I am and where the GOP is on most issues, be they issues of economic policy, social policy, or foreign policy. The party has changed a lot in the last quarter-century though, I'd say. However, I wouldn't say it's been in what I see as a positive way. (For example, I've never had less respect for the party's foreign policy views, which I'd characterize as currently downright anti-Western.) They just flat need a new generation of leaders first and foremost, I think. And fewer Confederate flags and Q'Anon type loons.

[Chris]

Still only criticism of the right and none of the left. Combination of views, I don't see that. Left-leaning is leaft-leaning.

[Standing Wolf]

Still only criticism of the right and none of the left. Combination of views, I don't see that. Left-leaning is leaft-leaning.

Maybe you're just filtering it out, Chris, because I see it here all the time. Every time another illogical anti-gun policy is being promoted somewhere, or AOC makes some off-the-wall pronouncement, or a "spokesperson for the Black community" is spouting some fantastic crap, or a women's sports competition is being made a joke by permitting transgendered individuals to participate, these things are normally roundly ridiculed by all - not just the self-id'ed conservative members. In her initial post on this thread, Polly noted a number of areas in which she has a problem with many (what I tend to refer to as) "special interest liberals". What is that if not being critical of the left?

Where are the conservative members' criticism on this forum of any aspect of the current Republican agenda? I'm afraid you could go blind looking for those posts.

Being a Moderate doesn't mean you suddenly turn your back on every liberal or conservative conviction you ever held. To me, it simply means you look for the position that makes the most logical sense, regardless of who is telling you otherwise. It means you're not afraid to ask the hard questions, occasionally play Devil's Advocate and reject all the insane, hyperbolic rhetoric coming from the extremes.

[Bo-4]

To all you liberals out there, I appreciate you being here. Try not to take anything personal, it's all just back-and-forth, each trying to outdo the other.

One of my favorite posters in the whole place is Leanne, a solid liberal. I loved her from the get-go, and I am beginning to appreciate more of you.

So hang in there!

We'd BETTER hang in there. Currently Progs are outnumbered by about 3-1. One of us drops off, that means that it's 4-1!

[Chris]

Maybe you're just filtering it out, Chris, because I see it here all the time. Every time another illogical anti-gun policy is being promoted somewhere, or AOC makes some off-the-wall pronouncement, or a "spokesperson for the Black community" is spouting some fantastic crap, or a women's sports competition is being made a joke by permitting transgendered individuals to participate, these things are normally roundly ridiculed by all - not just the self-id'ed conservative members. In her initial post on this thread, Polly noted a number of areas in which she has a problem with many (what I tend to refer to as) "special interest liberals". What is that if not being critical of the left?

Where are the conservative members' criticism on this forum of any aspect of the current Republican agenda? I'm afraid you could go blind looking for those posts.

Being a Moderate doesn't mean you suddenly turn your back on every liberal or conservative conviction you ever held. To me, it simply means you look for the position that makes the most logical sense, regardless of who is telling you otherwise. It means you're not afraid to ask the hard questions, occasionally play Devil's Advocate and reject all the insane, hyperbolic rhetoric coming from the extremes.

If you're saying you are critical of "Every time another illogical anti-gun policy is being promoted somewhere, or AOC makes some off-the-wall pronouncement, or a "spokesperson for the Black community" is spouting some fantastic crap, or a women's sports competition is being made a joke by permitting transgendered individuals to participate," then great, that would then make you a moderate.

Polly seemed to speak of the left's rejection of her. I do recall he being anti-trans movement.

I have criticized a number of Trump's policies. His tariff policies, for example. I have criticized his stealing liberal thunder on welfare policies. I would criticize his delaying the election, his banning tiktok--if he actually did those things. I have many times said I dislike him personally but just don't see that as significant. I can only speak for myself.


Actually I don't decide someone is left or right by the positions they take but by the principles they hold and the arguments they make to arrive at positions.

I should also clarify that I don't find Republicans necessarily conservative, and Trump hardly at all.

[Mister D]

Maybe you're just filtering it out, Chris, because I see it here all the time. Every time another illogical anti-gun policy is being promoted somewhere, or AOC makes some off-the-wall pronouncement, or a "spokesperson for the Black community" is spouting some fantastic crap, or a women's sports competition is being made a joke by permitting transgendered individuals to participate, these things are normally roundly ridiculed by all - not just the self-id'ed conservative members. In her initial post on this thread, Polly noted a number of areas in which she has a problem with many (what I tend to refer to as) "special interest liberals". What is that if not being critical of the left?

Where are the conservative members' criticism on this forum of any aspect of the current Republican agenda? I'm afraid you could go blind looking for those posts.

Being a Moderate doesn't mean you suddenly turn your back on every liberal or conservative conviction you ever held. To me, it simply means you look for the position that makes the most logical sense, regardless of who is telling you otherwise. It means you're not afraid to ask the hard questions, occasionally play Devil's Advocate and reject all the insane, hyperbolic rhetoric coming from the extremes.

The conservative members argue with one another quite often. One rarely sees this among our progressives. You would "go blind" looking for those discussions.