Personal responsibility and Epstein's victims

[TheOneOnly2]

Us Roman Catholics and Jews become responsible for our own actions before God at the age of about 12/13 after we have had our Confirmation or Bar Mitzvah and become Sons and Daughters of The Commandments/Soldiers of Christ.

Before our Confirmation or Bar Mitzvah our parents are responsible for our actions before God.

We are in a state of purity before our Confirmation or Bar Mitzvah but after God will judge us for the things that we do and the decisions that we make.

I accept that a 13 year old still has some maturing to do but by that age an individual should have a decent grasp on what is right and what is wrong. Even a non-Roman Catholic or non-Jewish 13 year old right?

So with that in mind - wouldnt you agree that the victims of Epstein must take some personal responsibility for the situation they allowed themselves to become involved in?

If a teenage girl agrees to go to the residence of a wealthy man to do some modelling for him - and then is asked to give a massage - agrees - and the massage ends happy - and the girl accepts a few hundred dollars for her trouble... - and then continues to perform questionable acts for money for this wealthy man - for months or years - can we really say that this girl is a completely innocent victim?

A couple hundred dollars to give a half hour happy massage sure beats picking up towels for %$%$ all and tips with dad that works at the country club right?

We all knew wayward teen girls growing up right? Come on. Dont these 'victims' need to take some personal responsibility for the decisions they made and the situations they put themselves in when it comes to Epstein?

Do any of you really believe that God would give these wayward teenage girls a free pass on this?

[DGUtley]

Not in the eyes of the law.

As I understand it, he preyed on impoverished young girls. Poverty makes people do strange things. He groomed them, worked them, etc. I don't think that they have responsibility. Were there some? I don't know.

[FindersKeepers]

Leaving God out of the equation, yes, everyone has to accept a measure of responsibility for their actions. What I don't know about Epstein is whether he took advantage of willing girls or unwilling girls. If he took advantage of unwilling girls who felt coerced at the time, then Epstein was wrong--more than that, however, just the idea that he was attracted to these girls and acted on that attraction suggests he was a sicko. Responsible men might be attracted to sweet young things, but they don't act on those impulses.

In addition, if the girls were legally underage, it opens a whole new door because they cannot legally consent, so, under the law, they are afforded a measure of protection against leches like Epstein.

In society, we accept that persons under a certain age cannot consent to sex because it's too easy for older persons to play on their insecurities. Just as we don't allow those under 18 to vote or join the military. They're still too young to make wise decisions (for the most part, some are exceptions, of course), but that's why we have laws.

While the girls have to accept a modicum of responsibility, the older men (and women) have to accept the lion's share.

[TheOneOnly2]

Leaving God out of the equation, yes, everyone has to accept a measure of responsibility for their actions. What I don't know about Epstein is whether he took advantage of willing girls or unwilling girls. If he took advantage of unwilling girls who felt coerced at the time, then Epstein was wrong--more than that, however, just the idea that he was attracted to these girls and acted on that attraction suggests he was a sicko. Responsible men might be attracted to sweet young things, but they don't act on those impulses.

In addition, if the girls were legally underage, it opens a whole new door because they cannot legally consent, so, under the law, they are afforded a measure of protection against leches like Epstein.

In society, we accept that persons under a certain age cannot consent to sex because it's too easy for older persons to play on their insecurities. Just as we don't allow those under 18 to vote or join the military. They're still too young to make wise decisions (for the most part, some are exceptions, of course), but that's why we have laws.

While the girls have to accept a modicum of responsibility, the older men (and women) have to accept the lion's share.

It is a bit fuzzy though isnt it. The age of consent is 16 most places right? 16 seems to be the age Epstein went for for the most part from what I can tell right? I have heard of a girl maybe being 14 but perhaps that was some kind of mix up. Just focusing on the 16 year olds that were procured - dont you think its a but odd that it would have been legal for Epstein to have sexual relationships with these 16 year olds but the fact that he compensated them/paid them makes the relationship illegal? You can have sex with a 14 year old in Brazil right? They are far more relaxed about this kind of thing in Europe too right? Could you argue that Epstein was a victim of politics?

McDonalds can pay a teenager - why cant Epstein? A lot of 16 year old girls out there would probably rather make bank working for a guy like Epstein giving happy massages than working shifts at McDonalds for nothing right? Isnt it restraint of trade to prevent them?

[DGUtley]

It is a bit fuzzy though isnt it. The age of consent is 16 most places right? 16 seems to be the age Epstein went for for the most part from what I can tell right? I have heard of a girl maybe being 14 but perhaps that was some kind of mix up. Just focusing on the 16 year olds that were procured - dont you think its a but odd that it would have been legal for Epstein to have sexual relationships with these 16 year olds but the fact that he compensated them/paid them makes the relationship illegal? You can have sex with a 14 year old in Brazil right? They are far more relaxed about this kind of thing in Europe too right? Could you argue that Epstein was a victim of politics?

McDonalds can pay a teenager - why cant Epstein? A lot of 16 year old girls out there would probably rather make bank working for a guy like Epstein giving happy massages than working shifts at McDonalds for nothing right? Isnt it restraint of trade to prevent them?

I don't know anywhere in the United States where 16 year olds are permitted to be prostitutes.

[TheOneOnly2]

Not in the eyes of the law.

As I understand it, he preyed on impoverished young girls. Poverty makes people do strange things. He groomed them, worked them, etc. I don't think that they have responsibility. Were there some? I don't know.

I am from Australia - recently we had some pro Rugby League Football players in the media for having sex with 16 year old girls - the media found out about it and the NRL deregistered the players.

It was a bit of a scandal because the players met these 16 year old girls at a highschool that their team the Canterbury Bulldogs were visiting to promote the team/league or whatever. They organized for these girls to met them that night at the hotel the team was staying at. So the story didnt sound great.

Anyway - the players appealed because the age of consent here is 16 and they had broken no laws and they won. No laws were broken.

I am no expert on 'grooming' but how the heck are you supposed to get with a 16 year old girl if you dont 'groom' them? Was any interaction between these NRL players and the 16 year old girls before the girls were asked to meet them that night at the teams hotel a case of these players 'grooming' these girls? Im not so sure I agree with this 'grooming' stuff.

And dont you think its odd that you can legally have a 16 year old gf in most places yet if you take a picture of them naked you have broken a law?

Would it be easier and more sensible in the modern times that we live in to lower the voting age to 16 and make 16 year olds legal adults?

[TheOneOnly2]

I don't know anywhere in the United States where 16 year olds are permitted to be prostitutes.

Me either. It kind of makes sense to allow it though doesnt it? If they are capable of giving informed consent at that age then should we really be preventing them from being able to profit from that informed consent? Isnt it restraint of trade to do so?

[DGUtley]

I am from Australia - recently we had some pro Rugby League Football players in the media for having sex with 16 year old girls - the media found out about it and the NRL deregistered the players. It was a bit of a scandal because the players met these 16 year old girls at a highschool that their team the Canterbury Bulldogs were visiting to promote the team/league or whatever. They organized for these girls to met them that night at the hotel the team was staying at. So the story didnt sound great. Anyway - the players appealed because the age of consent here is 16 and they had broken no laws and they won. No laws were broken.

I am no expert on 'grooming' but how the heck are you supposed to get with a 16 year old girl if you dont 'groom' them? Was any interaction between these NRL players and the 16 year old girls before the girls were asked to meet them that night at the teams hotel a case of these players 'grooming' these girls? Im not so sure I agree with this 'grooming' stuff. And dont you think its odd that you can legally have a 16 year old gf in most places yet if you take a picture of them naked you have broken a law? Would it be easier and more sensible in the modern times that we live in to lower the voting age to 16 and make 16 year olds legal adults?

You aren't supposed to have sex with 16 year old girls. Grooming is more than hitting on a girl. No, lowering the voting age to permit kids that will eat Tide pods to let them vote is not a good idea.

Me either. It kind of makes sense to allow it though doesnt it? If they are capable of giving informed consent at that age then should we really be preventing them from being able to profit from that informed consent? Isnt it restraint of trade to do so?

No. Prostitution is illegal in the United States except in Nevada, and only there in select counties.

[Peter1469]

It is a bit fuzzy though isnt it. The age of consent is 16 most places right? 16 seems to be the age Epstein went for for the most part from what I can tell right? I have heard of a girl maybe being 14 but perhaps that was some kind of mix up. Just focusing on the 16 year olds that were procured - dont you think its a but odd that it would have been legal for Epstein to have sexual relationships with these 16 year olds but the fact that he compensated them/paid them makes the relationship illegal? You can have sex with a 14 year old in Brazil right? They are far more relaxed about this kind of thing in Europe too right? Could you argue that Epstein was a victim of politics?

McDonalds can pay a teenager - why cant Epstein? A lot of 16 year old girls out there would probably rather make bank working for a guy like Epstein giving happy massages than working shifts at McDonalds for nothing right? Isnt it restraint of trade to prevent them?

Sex with someone under the age of 18 is statutory rape in each state (with some narrow exceptions).

So far as the personal responsibility or lack there of of a victim- that is not a defense to a criminal charge relating to sex crimes or other exploitation crimes.

[TheOneOnly2]

You aren't supposed to have sex with 16 year old girls. Grooming is more than hitting on a girl. No, lowering the voting age to permit kids that will eat Tide pods to vote.






No. Prostitution is illegal in the United States except in Nevada, and only there in select counties.

Why arent you supposed to have sex with 16 year old girls if the age of consent is 16? The Rugby League players that I mentioned above had sex with 16 year old girl - all good. Isnt that how it works in USA?

I am very confused over what is and isnt considered to be 'grooming'. Especially when it comes to a 16 year old that is capable of giving informed consent.

And yeah I heard about that - no hookers unless in Nevada. LIBERTY! .... Isnt that kind of unAmerican? Nevada - craiglist or streetwalkers. Thats pretty sad. We have brothels everywhere here in Australia - its fantastic.