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Thread: Some Atheists Say Heaven {Eternity} Would Be Boring. Wrong. Interesting & Exciting

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post

    It's avoidance.
    Why do you want the bible to say something different than it does?
    What does John 3:16 say?
    ...should not perish, BUT have everlasting life.
    So, given that it's our choice according to Christians, what's the problem?


    Hello again, Helena.
    By the way, Helena is a beautiful name.
    I have always liked it.

    ________

    Helena,
    You are incorrect in your interpretation of John chapter 3
    You can NOT possibly interpret John chapter 3 as teaching what
    you seem to be suggesting that it teaches. My views is that you
    are leaving out "whoever does not believe stands condemned
    already because he has not believed in the name of God's one
    and only Son"

    So?
    So you are ignoring the context.
    Here is the context.

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,
    that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

    For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the
    world, but to save the world through him.
    Whoever believes
    in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands
    condemned already because they have not believed in the name
    of God’s one and only Son
    . This is the verdict: Light has come
    into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because
    their deeds were evil.
    Everyone who does evil hates the light,
    and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be
    exposed.
    But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light,
    so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has
    been done in the sight of God."___From John chapter 3

    __________


    Helena, thank you for your comments and for your interest
    in the thread. Much appreciated.


    Best.


    JAG

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    I get your stance on this, but you must allow that interpretation differs wildly as to what condemn, condemnation and perish means. To you it means?

    John 3:16 plainly states ... should not perish, BUT have everlasting life. Are you seeing the conflict here?


    Thank you for the compliment on my name.
    You are wrong about police.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45 View Post
    Samuel Clements (AKA Mark Twain) thought that most people are
    bored by 20 minutes of church services. Why would they want to
    spend eternity singing and praising God when they could't do it for
    10 minutes on Earth. I would expect travel agents offering 14 day
    trips to Hell would do a bang up business.
    Mark Twain was an infamous anti-Christian who wrote stuff so ugly against
    Christianity and the God of the Bible that his family kept it from being
    published for a long time, for example his Letters from The Earth.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_the_Earth
    ____________

    A couple of Mark train quotes for you:
    Mark Twain on God and on the Bible:
    {God} He took a pride in man; man was his finest invention; man was his pet, after the housefly....
    `
    (On the Bible) It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and
    some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity;
    and upwards of a thousand lies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_the_Earth

    So?

    So Mark twain is not an unbiased source for accurate information about
    the truth of Christianity. Asking Mark Twain what he thought of Christianity
    is like asking The Joker what he thinks of Batman. They are sworn enemies.

    ______

    Also Hell is described as a place of untold agony and suffering.
    So travel agents would go broke offering 14 day trips to Hell.

    You used the word "Hell" and all we know about "Hell" is what
    the New Testament says about it, so we have to go with that.
    Otherwise "Hell" can be anything you want it to be, for example
    "Hell" can be an Ice Cream Parlor if you say it is that.

    Regarding what Heaven will be like:
    think of a highly advanced Earthly human civilization
    that is totally free from all Sin and the bad effects of Sin
    and that will give you a picture of what Heaven will be like.
    Education
    Philosophy
    Literature
    The Performing Arts
    Music
    Visual Arts
    Museums
    History
    Travel
    Exploration
    Law
    Archeology
    Math
    Languages
    Inventions
    Creativity
    Art classes
    Movies
    Plays
    Grand musical presentations
    Opera
    Ballet
    and thousands of other higly interesting areas of human knowledge
    all in a place that is totally free from the Sin Principle and its destructive
    effects.
    There will come a time when humans will go "off the charts" in creativity.

    All that up there is nothing that you want to "say no to."

    Best


    JAG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post
    I get your stance on this, but you must allow that interpretation
    differs wildly as to what condemn, condemnation and perish means.
    To you it means?

    John 3:16 plainly states ... should not perish,
    BUT have everlasting life
    . Are you seeing the conflict here?

    Thank you for the compliment on my name.
    You seem to be interpreting "should not perish BUT have everlasting life"
    as saying that all humans will be saved.
    If you are doing that, then that's Universalism and the Bible does not
    teach Universalism.
    I do not know exactly what you are saying, so it will have to remain a mystery
    unless you just come on and tell me exactly what conclusions you are drawing
    from your interpretation of John 3:16

    _______

    Regarding the word "perish" you know probably as well as I do that there are two
    interpretations of "perish" within Christendom
    {1} Eternal Conscious Torment
    {2} Annihilation

    Arguments can be presented for both positions.
    Most Christians tend to go with {1}
    Some go with{2}
    Regarding {2}, read this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fudge


    Best

    JAG

    PS
    You're welcome, Helena :-)


    ``

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    We are given free choice regarding belief in God: yes or no. Atheists have made theirs.
    WWG1WGA

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    Mark Twain was an infamous anti-Christian who wrote stuff so ugly against
    Christianity and the God of the Bible that his family kept it from being
    published for a long time, for example his Letters from The Earth.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letters_from_the_Earth
    ____________

    A couple of Mark train quotes for you:
    Mark Twain on God and on the Bible:
    {God} He took a pride in man; man was his finest invention; man was his pet, after the housefly....
    `
    (On the Bible) It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and
    some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity;
    and upwards of a thousand lies.
    The great majority of so-called attacks on "Christianity and the God of the Bible" are nothing of the kind, but rather criticisms of the misbehavior and unwarranted intrusions on the activities of other people by those professing to be Christians. Another area in which self-identified Christians sometimes leave themselves and their religious practice - please note I did not say "their faith" - open for criticism or ridicule is their failure to understand what their own Bible says or what their own Faith teaches.

    Twain was a satirist - the only thing he was ever really an enemy of was phoniness and self-importance. The observation he made about how quickly people become bored during church services was simply that - an observation, and a true one. His broad analysis and description of the Bible's contents was accurate, as anyone - including any Christian - who spends any time studying the Old Testament can attest.
    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” - Robert E. Howard

    "Only a rank degenerate would drive 1,500 miles across Texas and not eat a chicken fried steak." - Larry McMurtry

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    You seem to be interpreting "should not perish BUT have everlasting life"
    as saying that all humans will be saved.
    If you are doing that, then that's Universalism and the Bible does not
    teach Universalism.
    I do not know exactly what you are saying, so it will have to remain a mystery
    unless you just come on and tell me exactly what conclusions you are drawing
    from your interpretation of John 3:16

    _______

    Regarding the word "perish" you know probably as well as I do that there are two
    interpretations of "perish" within Christendom
    {1} Eternal Conscious Torment
    {2} Annihilation

    Arguments can be presented for both positions.
    Most Christians tend to go with {1}
    Some go with{2}
    Regarding {2}, read this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fudge


    Best

    JAG

    PS
    You're welcome, Helena :-)


    ``
    Okay, why do most Christians tend to go with Interpretation No 1? That's a whole new discussion. A big one.

    I'm not saying that the bible says all will be saved, although yes, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. (not willing that any should perish)..

    What I am saying is that there is a difference between life and death. And the many verses that deal with perishing OR everlasting life, The Book of Life, names blotted out of The Book of Life..etc seems to me a pretty reasonable argument for annihilation/ceasing to exist vs an eternal life.

    Letters from the Earth
    is wonderfully and creatively written and I enjoyed every morsel. Wish to god I had read or even knew about it in high school. I would have had some fun with it.
    You are wrong about police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena;2945866
    `[I
    Letters from the Earth[/I] is wonderfully and creatively
    written and I enjoyed every morsel. Wish to god I had read
    or even knew about it in high school. I would have had some
    fun with it.
    `
    Nothing but pre-Dookins anti-Christian hate.
    Pre-Dookins
    Pre-Sam Harris
    Pre-Christopher Hitchens {dead but still speaking through his books and videos}
    Pre-Matt Dillahunty
    Pre-Stephen Fry

    I've read Letters From The Earth.
    I know what is in it.
    It was so ugly that Twain's family would not allow it
    to be published. They later changed their mind
    about that when, as they put it, the country
    became "more tolerant."

    JAG

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    Quote Originally Posted by JAG View Post
    Nothing but pre-Dookins anti-Christian hate.
    Pre-Dookins
    Pre-Sam Harris
    Pre-Christopher Hitchens {dead but still speaking through his books and videos}
    Pre-Matt Dillahunty
    Pre-Stephen Fry

    I've read Letters From The Earth.
    I know what is in it.
    It was so ugly that Twain's family would not allow it
    to be published. They later changed their mind
    about that when, as they put it, the country
    became "more tolerant."

    JAG
    I like listening to a lot of Sam Harris. His books are okay. I can take or leave Matt Dillahunty. He doesn't have a lot of humor left in him and his anger and temper overshadows some of the points he tries to make.

    Hitchens made me laugh.

    Not too familiar with Stephen Fry.

    Just remember that criticisms do not always stack up to "hate". And, even if it always was the case that it did, hate isn't necessarily bad. Now is it?

    Now, what about the rest of my post?
    Okay, why do most Christians tend to go with Interpretation No 1? That's a whole new discussion. A big one.

    I'm not saying that the bible says all will be saved, although yes, I can see how it could be interpreted that way. (not willing that any should perish)..

    What I am saying is that there is a difference between life and death. And the many verses that deal with perishing OR everlasting life, The Book of Life, names blotted out of The Book of Life..etc seems to me a pretty reasonable argument for annihilation/ceasing to exist vs an eternal life.
    You are wrong about police.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post
    Not too familiar with Stephen Fry.
    An atheist on You Tube that had a video that went viral.
    Fry was being interviewed and the interviewer asked him what
    if when you die you discover that there really is a God, what
    would you say to Him? Fry replied, "Bone cancer in children. What's
    that all about?"
    Fry thought that was being "cute" and "wise."

    _________

    Fry has some age on him, 62.

    What Fry really needs is a true Friend {the Lord Jesus}

    Intellectualism, Empiricism, Rationalism, Logic, Secularism
    are not Fry's friends, they are the enemies of his soul and
    will be no comfort to him in his relatively soon coming
    desperate "hour of need." But Fry does not yet know this.
    But he will come to know it.
    But by then it could be to late.

    So Fry is an atheist and regarding atheists , , ,

    At bottom atheism is the personal decision to keep the God that
    created them OUT of their lives.
    Atheism is humans telling God to "get away from me, I want no
    part of you, I do not want YOU God, telling me how to live my life,"
    Atheists want to be, and are, their own god.
    Here is atheism in a nutshell. I am my own god.

    Some metaphors , , ,

    Stephen Fry is in a losing war with General Time and General
    Death -- they have never lost a battle. Fry's last battlefield

    will be his Death Bed if he dies from natural causes. Consider
    these fierce ugly murderous battlefield Generals:

    General Cancer
    General Stroke
    General Heart Disease
    General Diabetes
    General Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease
    General Severe Alzheimer's Disease


    So if Fry dies from natural causes. the chances of him having
    a sustained prolonged murderous encounter with one or more
    of those fierce hate-filled murderous battlefield Generals is
    very high. A few months into his likely relatively soon-coming
    ordeal can give Fry a long-pause" and he
    may seriously question
    his "love for Voltaire" and all the anti-God
    "brainy stuff" as he
    lays there perhaps choking and dying in his own
    juices Don't
    argue with the metaphors. If you don't like
    "love for Voltaire"
    and "the Generals" you can pick other metaphors that you
    like better. Fact is, all of Fry's brainy anti-Christian proclamations
    will not be of comfort to him
    when it comes to his certain-coming
    battles
    with General Time and General Death.
    All that goes for me too.
    And everybody else.
    Including Helena.

    If we die from natural causes there will come a time when our
    doctor will shake his head and walk a way, and at that time
    the only true Friend we will have is the God that created us
    and the Lord Jesus --- "Voltaire" will be nowhere to be found.

    ______________

    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post

    Just remember that criticisms do not always stack up
    to "hate".

    Secularism is at war with Christianity in most all Social Media
    with threads in Forums on the Internet At Large and pretending'
    that its mere intellectual discussion in search of the truth
    is just one of the Rules Of Ideological War.


    ``
    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post

    And, even if it always was the case that it did,
    hate isn't necessarily bad. Now is it?

    Yes it is. Hate is ALWAYS a bad thing when humans are the
    object of the hate. Why?

    {1} Hate clouds your judgment.

    {2} Hate is unnecessary.

    {3} You can apply force against a human and not hate the human,
    examples the police and soldiers.

    {4} As long as there is human life, there is hope for the human
    person and so the human person ought not to be the object of hate.
    Go read about Karla Faye Tucker the Texas axe murderer who on
    a Texas Death Row, became a true born again beautiful glowing
    magnificent Christian.

    If you like a true "rags to riches" story , , or better
    an true "axe murderer to glowing Christian" story
    you really ought to learn about Karla Faye Tucker.
    She has a wiki page
    YouTube has many videos of the beautiful Karla Faye Tucker.

    By the way, George W. Bush refused to spare her life and Karla
    Faye was executed. She "went out" a beautiful glowing happy
    Christian. Its all on YouTube.
    ``

    Quote Originally Posted by Helena View Post
    Now, what about the rest of my post?

    I don't have much interest in those subjects right now.
    If you truly have a genuine interest in my answers you can
    ask me a specific question and we'll see where it goes?


    Best.

    JAG


    Last edited by JAG; 08-11-2020 at 10:20 AM.

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