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The short answer is that it depends on how you define human rights. As we have different definitions, our answers would be necessarily different. According to my definition, the answer to the question is both.Originally Posted by Chris
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The short answer is that it depends on how you define human rights. As we have different definitions, our answers would be necessarily different. According to my definition, the answer to the question is both.
In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.
"The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
Mahatma Gandhi
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Wasn't that my point from the beginning? A conservative defines rights as personal obligations to society, a liberal as what society through government is obliged to provide, as the cost of depriving others their rights.The short answer is that it depends on how you define human rights.
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler
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I think that oversimplifies the liberal view. Liberals also consider their obligations to society but differ in the method of delivery.
In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.
"The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
Mahatma Gandhi
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of course it's oversimplification.
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Who, in 25 words or less what do you expect but generalizations the elaboration of which is the purpose of discussion.
Yes, the method of delivery differs, as I've said elsewhere, the ends are the same, the means differ. Conservative means are to take the obligations of liberty on oneself, the liberal means is to delegate that to government.
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler
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And that you contribute nothing.
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler
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I'm not sure what you are asking but I must somehow respond to your 59 words with 25?
Liberals believe in personal freedom and freedom for others, not just the most fortunate or able. Freedom etc = more than subsistence existence. People are not all moral and historically have not preserved or considered the rights of others, hence the neutrality of government through taxation and legislation is the required instrument to ensure the preservation of natural rights for all.
In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.
"The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
Mahatma Gandhi
Awards:
Senior Member
My point was simple, who, in the few words of a post most of what's said will be generalizations that are elaborated through discussion.
Autonomy. All that you say substantiates a view of rights as autonomous. That was the point of the OP--half of it, the other half being that conservatives see rights as obligations to society.Liberals believe in personal freedom and freedom for others....
But government consists of the same people who are not all moral and historically have not preserved or considered the rights of others, and therefore are not nor ever will be neutral.People are not all moral and historically have not preserved or considered the rights of others, hence the neutrality of government through taxation and legislation is the required instrument to ensure the preservation of natural rights for all.
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary," Madison, Federalist 51, agrees with you, but takes it further as I do: "If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions."
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler
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I don't disagree with Madison, government requires oversight. Nevertheless, I prefer that the distribution of charity and the assessment of human worth be done without the personal bias that is intrinsic to human interaction, but is instead guided by neutral legislation that focuses on the principles of morality and natural rights and the exigencies of life that stem therefrom.
In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.
"The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
Mahatma Gandhi
Awards:
Senior Member
If people are as you say they are then how can government implement your program? If people are incapable of assessing human worth how then can government people do so? If people are biased how then can government people be neutral?
If legislated law is artificial posited lw how then can it be natural law?
Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler
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