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Thread: Are libertarians individualists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codename Section View Post
    You have a really distorted view on anarcho-capitalists. It is a way of saying that instead of everyone working without currency and without government we will continue to engage in free trade and free commerce.

    We are very communitarian, we just don't believe we need to force people to accept our same values and we don't believe in robbing from the guy who makes $45k a year to pay for the people who make $20k.

    We'd ask nicely. Believe it or not, that still works when people aren't also being robbed by the government. I am extremely generous with my money and things. I live in an communitarian environment.
    actually, i don't find that at all. because the same so-called "anarchy-capitalists" are perfectly fine with government legislating morality. this distortion that government shouldn't act for the general welfare leaves most people on their own.

    that is reality.

    and there are things that we do as members of a society. breaking down that society in favor of unrestrained corporatism (which has always failed) leaves us in a banana republic where there are a few who are wealthy, and a sub class of interchangeable disposable workers.. with no middle class.

    (enter chris saying that's marxist ideology because well... he says so).

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    Quote Originally Posted by jillian View Post
    actually, i don't find that at all. because the same so-called "anarchy-capitalists" are perfectly fine with government legislating morality.
    @jillian,

    I think you know of no anarcho-capitalists then because I know hundreds from the marines and none of us give a $#@! about the morality of others and especially not legislating it.

    What you do is YOUR business.


    this distortion that government shouldn't act for the general welfare leaves most people on their own.
    We believe in no government.

    that is reality.
    No, we're stuck with a government that legislates "niceness", what we eat, how we drive and what we drive, how fast we can drive, where we can park, what types of guns we can buy, what kind of milk we drink, where we can buy food, where we can swim, if we need to have a fence around our own pool, what types of marriage are ok and which aren't, how much money we can leave our kids----infinity.

    and there are things that we do as members of a society. breaking down that society in favor of unrestrained corporatism (which has always failed) leaves us in a banana republic where there are a few who are wealthy, and a sub class of interchangeable disposable workers.. with no middle class.
    Corporations only have power because government uses force to perpetuate it and regulate to their benefit. Without government we would have no Monsanto or Halliburton.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jillian View Post
    yes. you can call it anything you'd like. "anarcho-capitalists" are randians/austrians. they believe only in the individual and think society should fend for itself.

    if i'm wrong about that, please tell me in what way what i stated doesn't reflect the views of so-called "anarchy-capitalists".
    Lysander Spooner was an "anarcho-capitalist", was he a "Randian" or an "Austrian"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Lysander Spooner was an "anarcho-capitalist", was he a "Randian" or an "Austrian"?
    Are the two even synonymous?
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Lysander Spooner was an "anarcho-capitalist", was he a "Randian" or an "Austrian"?
    I don't know if @jillian is familiar with voluntarism or Spooner. I think she looks at Paul Ryan and thinks he's one of us in spite of the fact that he's IN government.

    FYI, Jillian we don't believe in government and therefore you cannot be an anarcho-capitalist/voluntarist and participate in that system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codename Section View Post
    @jillian,

    I think you know of no anarcho-capitalists then because I know hundreds from the marines and none of us give a $#@! about the morality of others and especially not legislating it.
    well then you might want to chat with chris. he thinks personhood laws are peachy keen because he can't figure out that a sentient woman has rights and two cells don't. but if you're an actual libertarian, which you sound like. you and i are cool. as i've said, i respect libertarians. i just don't agree that certain aspects of it are good for society. so please don't take my distaste for pretend libertarians as any reflection of my opinion of you.

    What you do is YOUR business.
    thank you. i agree. but don't you believe that in order to assure my continued ability to make my own moral choices, that government has to enforce that right?


    We believe in no government.
    and that is where i think the ideology is as doomed to failure as marxism... which, in theory, has no government either. government is simply necessary to enforce individual rights... as well as the common good. a world of me, me, me, simply doesn't exist and can't work any more than a marxist society could.

    No, we're stuck with a government that legislates "niceness", what we eat, how we drive and what we drive, how fast we can drive, where we can park, what types of guns we can buy, what kind of milk we drink, where we can buy food, where we can swim, if we need to have a fence around our own pool, what types of marriage are ok and which aren't, how much money we can leave our kids----infinity.
    government can't legislate "niceness" but it sure can say that you cannot discrimiante against another human being or keep that human being from going to schools paid for by the government. that isn't legislating "niceness" it is legislating equal constitutional


    Corporations only have power because government uses force to perpetuate it and regulate to their benefit. Without government we would have no Monsanto or Halliburton.
    historically that is false... laissez faire capitalism always results in overly empowered corporations. good government limits corporate infringements by leveling the field with wage/hour laws, OSHA regulations and anti-trust laws and the like.

    our society has already lived through and rejected an unregulated economy because it is bad for society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Codename Section View Post
    I don't know if @jillian is familiar with voluntarism or Spooner. I think she looks at Paul Ryan and thinks he's one of us in spite of the fact that he's IN government.

    FYI, Jillian we don't believe in government and therefore you cannot be an anarcho-capitalist/voluntarist and participate in that system.
    and when has such a society worked @Codename Section? when has any unfettered economy been good for the workers and not only the top 1% types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Lysander Spooner was an "anarcho-capitalist", was he a "Randian" or an "Austrian"?
    oh.. i don't know. but he was a big supporter of the labor movement. he also lived in the 1800's. society was a bit different then. yes?

    when was the dustbowl?

    the great depression?

    he wasn't here for those things... and most of his philosophy wouldn't have been adequate to address them.

    so given that he was pro labor, how do you put that together with the present "anarchy-capitalist" types.. desire to simply not give a flying about workers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jillian View Post
    well then you might want to chat with chris. he thinks personhood laws are peachy keen because he can't figure out that a sentient woman has rights and two cells don't. but if you're an actual libertarian, which you sound like. you and i are cool. as i've said, i respect libertarians. i just don't agree that certain aspects of it are good for society. so please don't take my distaste for pretend libertarians as any reflection of my opinion of you.
    Why thank you.


    thank you. i agree. but don't you believe that in order to assure my continued ability to make my own moral choices, that government has to enforce that right?
    No. I think removing the government from having power over your moral choices protects them for all time and changes in culture or party.

    When you tell the government it has the power over someone's choices for their body (drugs or even raw milk) then you set the stage for telling them they can't have a medical procedure.

    and that is where i think the ideology is as doomed to failure as marxism... which, in theory, has no government either. government is simply necessary to enforce individual rights... as well as the common good. a world of me, me, me, simply doesn't exist and can't work any more than a marxist society could.
    Without government you enforce your own rights and freely associate with people who think like you.


    government can't legislate "niceness" but it sure can say that you cannot discrimiante against another human being or keep that human being from going to schools paid for by the government. that isn't legislating "niceness" it is legislating equal constitutional
    I don't care what's determined for public schools. Everyone's taxes are in that pot. I do care when the courts tell private businesses that they must perform labor for another person (photography, cake baking) in order to not hurt their feelings when they have other options (photography, cake baking) and can use market pressures (boycotts) over government force (fines) to get your way.

    I hate homophobes, but I'd just avoid giving them money and call them hateful $#@!s when I see them. I don't need to fine them. That's thought police territory.


    historically that is false... laissez faire capitalism always results in overly empowered corporations. good government limits corporate infringements by leveling the field with wage/hour laws, OSHA regulations and anti-trust laws and the like.
    When have we actually had it in the West? There was always governments, and always governments colluding with businesses or large landowners to give them monopoly power.

    our society has already lived through and rejected an unregulated economy because it is bad for society.
    When?

    Tribal systems were free trade and communal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jillian View Post
    and when has such a society worked @Codename Section? when has any unfettered economy been good for the workers and not only the top 1% types?
    Ireland, Iceland, post revolution Russia seems to be doing well. They have a 15% flat tax, hardly any business tax and a better labor rate than we do now.

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