Is Western Democracy Real or a Facade?

[Mister D]

Maybe I spend too much time on this site with all you fancy-pants independents.

I didn't mean you or present company.

I have a core principles and a worldview. I'm not independent in the sense of "middle of the road" etc. I don't think I would describe myself that way.

[Conley]

Understood. I mean independent only so far as free thinking and not a party stooge.

[Mister D]

Understood. I mean independent only so far as free thinking and not a party stooge.

I think most people will readily acknowledge the truth of what we've said about the state of the two party system but they just go right back to slinging mud at the other party.

[RollingWave]

Well, I think democracy is always relative, past democracies are hardly perfect either, in Athenes and Rome only citizens (who were male, and most likely only made up of something like 15-20% of the population at best). could vote, and even then the votes were often swayed by a few big shots and big families. and Anyone reading the history of the west in the later 19th and early 20th C (espeically on general social conditions) would probably find more similarity between then and China today than the USA today etc.. it's a continued work in process I'd think.

Money plays a too big part in the current world's democracy I agree, but let's not pretend that it didn't in the past, I should point out that the American revolution started over..... taxes ... and was mostly lead by.... the (very) rich... for example... but I'd think that money and the well being of the citizens as a whole is also not neccesarily seperated (obviously) and more over when they are clearly seperated, it is quite possible for the later to overwrite the former as well.


Look at Taiwan, the ruling KMT party was one of the wealthiest party in the world during it's late authoritarian and early democratic stage, but it still somehow lost to the DPP, who's candidate was born to the poorest of all peasant familes. Sure other aspect playe into it (such as the KMT's own internal struggles). but it shows that money is not a indestructable force that can overwrite everything else with inpunity.

Call me an optimist I guess, but I don't believe that (the vast majority of) human are inherently evil or can be fooled forever against their own interest.

[Conley]

As much as I hate the idea of money in politics though, it will always be there and the wealthy will always be more powerful. That's just the nature of the beast. While exceptions exist like your KMT / DPP example, it just seems that situations like that only arise in unusual circumstances. I don't believe money nor those who wield it are inherently evil (to borrow a phrase ) so I have no problem staying optimistic.

[Peter1469]

100% transparency into the system would solve some of these problems with the wealthy having great political power. If citizens knew that a politician was taking money from a rich guy for favors, it would be less likely to happen and may end the politician's career with the next election.

[Conley]

100% transparency into the system would solve some of these problems with the wealthy having great political power. If citizens knew that a politician was taking money from a rich guy for favors, it would be less likely to happen and may end the politician's career with the next election.

But even with the obscured transparency we have now, it's easy to connect the dots. It seems to me people just don't care. There are so many examples and such obvious ones of pols taking money and then sponsoring or supporting legislation that favors those companies.

[Peter1469]

Well you have a point there.

[MMC]

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. There is nothing more evil than that which stems from man. The greatest leaders of all time. All committed acts of evil.

What about a Monarchial Republic. I believe the expanded definitions of so called Democracy.(Mob Rule) Can be placed in check.

[Mister D]

Frankly, I've become increasingly anti-democratic and anti-liberal (liberalism in it's broadest sense). I know I stand with a small minority in that regard, at least in terms of being fully conscious of it, but that's how I am.