Establishing a U.S. State Religion

[patrickt]

It's fun watching true believers bicker with true believers. Is anyone on the forum more of a true believer than Kilgram and his blind devotion? Jillian believes totally and refuses to consider anything that challenges her faith. And, Cigar? Actually, I don't think he is a true believer. He's a Jim Bakker who makes money on the deal.

My favorite day is May 1st when the communist all gather in the town square in Oaxaca to proselytize but since no one is really interested it devolves into the Stalinists bickering with the Maoists with the Trotskyites with the Leninists and other splinter groups thrown in. You'd think it was Baptist bickering with Methodists with Church of Christ faithful with Lutheran with Jehovah's Witnesses.

[Max Rockatansky]

Remember the announcement at the 2012 Democrat National Convention that "government is the only thing we all belong to?"
Even when listened to in context, it is an alarming statement, as it implies the State has ultimate power over the individual, who becomes merely part of the collective.

Fay needs to pull her head out of her ass. If that's not the problem, then she is simply bomb-throwing because that's not what the video implies at all in context.

Here is the statement in context:

"We are committed to all people. We do believe you could use government in a good way. Government’s the only thing that we all belong to. We have different churches, different clubs, but we’re together as a part of our city, or our county, or our state and our nation."

The 5 minute video was titled "Welcome to Charlotte" and the quote was part of the narration by former NC governor Jim Hunt. The United States is a Federal Constitutional Republic. "We, the People" are the government since it's our representatives that we send to Congress and it's our elected officials we designate to carry out the will of "We, the People". In that context, our government, indeed, "the only thing that we all belong to". Everything else is a sub-category; States, cities, jobs, etc.

If Ms. Voshell simply misread the statement, I can forgive an error. If she is intentionally slanting this for political reasons, then she is deliberately attempting to deceive her fellow Americans.....if she's an American at all.

[zelmo1234]

I disagree. It rests on the might of the military. And its loyalty.

The people are nothing. What are they gonna do? Nothing.

That is what the king of England thought! but the people in the USA are getting fed up. Hopefully they will be able to vote for people that will change the system.

But also in America the Military is sworn to the constitution and not the Government, and many as you can see by the former members on our board would side against the government and for the constitution.

So unlike many states the government can't count on the military murdering it's opponates

[Chris]

Statism doesn't even meet the minimal criteria of a religion.

Read you some Hegel. Here's some highlights from Hegel: The State as God's Will:

...Armed with such a philosophy and with such a philosopher, the modern state would take its divinely appointed stand at the height of history and civilization, as God on earth. Thus, "The modern State, proving the reality of political community, when comprehended philosophically, could therefore be seen as the highest articulation of Spirit, or God in the contemporary world." The state, then, is "a supreme manifestation of the activity of God in the world," and, "the State stands above all; it is Spirit which knows itself as the universal essence and reality"; and, "The State is the reality of the kingdom of heaven." And finally, "The State is God's Will."

...As Karl Popper puts it,

Hegel was appointed to meet this demand, and he did so by reviving the ideas of the first great enemies of the open society [especially Heraclitus and Plato] … Hegel rediscovered the Platonic Ideas which lie behind the perennial revolt against freedom and reason. Hegelianism is the renaissance of tribalism … [Hegel] is the "missing link," as it were, between Plato and the modern forms of totalitarianism. Most of the modern totalitarians, … know of their indebtedness to Hegel, and all of them have been brought up in the close atmosphere of Hegelianism. They have been taught to worship the state, history, and the nation.[6]

On Hegel's worship of the state, Popper cites chilling and revealing passages:

The State is the Divine Idea as it exists on earth … We must therefore worship the State as the manifestation of the Divine on earth … The State is the march of God through the world … The State must be comprehended as an organism … To the complete State belongs, essentially, consciousness and thought. The State knows what it wills … The State … exists for its own sake … The State is the actually existing, realized moral life.

All this rant is well characterized by Popper as "bombastic and hysterical Platonism."

[kilgram]

It's fun watching true believers bicker with true believers. Is anyone on the forum more of a true believer than Kilgram and his blind devotion? Jillian believes totally and refuses to consider anything that challenges her faith. And, Cigar? Actually, I don't think he is a true believer. He's a Jim Bakker who makes money on the deal.

My favorite day is May 1st when the communist all gather in the town square in Oaxaca to proselytize but since no one is really interested it devolves into the Stalinists bickering with the Maoists with the Trotskyites with the Leninists and other splinter groups thrown in. You'd think it was Baptist bickering with Methodists with Church of Christ faithful with Lutheran with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Am I believer? On what? On secularism. On separation of church and state? And my devotion is to?

[Chris]

only in a very vivid fantasy world...


words have meaning…

re·li·gion

noun\ri-ˈli-jən\: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods
: an interest, a belief, or an activity that is very important to a person or group

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/religion

not being rabidly anti-government does not mean one defies government.

And the forum statist can do no more than pull out a common dictionary and ad hom.

[zelmo1234]

The people are POWERLESS today!

The corporate fascists have taken over the machine, and care not a whit about you and I!

actually they have a lot of power we have witnessed it on the state levels

For example MI and WI elected state wide physically conservative governments and they have turned the deficits into surpluses and MI for the first time Since the First term of Gov Engler? Had more people move into the state than move out, and that is saying something because we are loosing a lot of our life time welfare recipients as they hit there 48 month lifetime maximums

Like always it starts local and moves national.

On the other side look at NYC they have elected a socialist Mayor and are moving in the direction that they want

[Chris]

actually? in terms of our legal system?

until whatever decision the court makes is reversed by a later supreme court or modified in later cases… yes, you do follow. that is the legal system we have.

you don't get to wake up in the morning and decide not to follow the law. neither can i. well, you can, but you'll be violating the law and subject to whatever penalty (civil or criminal) exists for the law you violated.

And there you have it, full out admission of worship of the state as God. The progeny of Plato, Hegel and Marx.


Note she forgets:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

[Chris]

It's fun watching true believers bicker with true believers. Is anyone on the forum more of a true believer than Kilgram and his blind devotion? Jillian believes totally and refuses to consider anything that challenges her faith. And, Cigar? Actually, I don't think he is a true believer. He's a Jim Bakker who makes money on the deal.

My favorite day is May 1st when the communist all gather in the town square in Oaxaca to proselytize but since no one is really interested it devolves into the Stalinists bickering with the Maoists with the Trotskyites with the Leninists and other splinter groups thrown in. You'd think it was Baptist bickering with Methodists with Church of Christ faithful with Lutheran with Jehovah's Witnesses.

Well, he is an anarchist, but, then again, I don't know how he can achieve a communist state of no private property (capital) without force.

[Max Rockatansky]

And the forum statist can do no more than pull out a common dictionary and ad hom.

Anyone can criticize those who seek to clarify a discussion by including definitions and make up accusations where none exist.

Saying "not being rabidly anti-government does not mean one defies government" is not an ad hominem. If she said you were "a pompous moron" that would have been an ad hominem, but she did not.