Religious liberty should be a liberal value, too

[Chris]

MMM, let's see. Study religion in school. MMM, what other, ah yes, forced to my parents to attend to church even if they didn't want, or they would have corporal punishments at school.

What more? MMM ah yes, it does not affect me directly but yes to many stolen children from their parents by nuns working in hospitals.

Explain how they forced you to study and your parents to attend church. Don't speak in metaphors of war and slavery, be specific as to what actions the church took to force you and your parents. Otherwise, frankly, this will be just another repetition and boring.

[midcan5]

What a bunch of BS. 'Liberal project of egalitarianism and administrative efficiency,' huh, where'd that come from. I wish people like Michael Brendan Dougherty would stick to what they know. Religious liberty is a liberal value, liberty means freedom to be religious. And what the heck is our 'monocultural elite class?' Anyone know? Arizona legislators chose to enforce one religion, the veto had nothing to do with egalitarianism, had lots to do with money and hopefully for some our constitutional freedoms.


Within the confines of your religion you can be as un-free as you like, but outside that place other values and laws take precedent.
Medicare is fundamentally a single payer system and I don't hear of religious conflicts there, do you? As a Catholic, I can tell you quite simply, few if any today do not use contraceptive methods. Contraception is merely a distraction in a complex topic. I wonder how many could live in a world in which sex was only about the propagation of the faith, the original Catholic concept. As far as the state's so called ideology, the purpose of the state is to support (and sometimes enforce) policies that work for all people and not write or interpret law based on religious canon.

[kilgram]

Explain how they forced you to study and your parents to attend church. Don't speak in metaphors of war and slavery, be specific as to what actions the church took to force you and your parents. Otherwise, frankly, this will be just another repetition and boring.

$#@!, I was clear.

To my parents, if they didn't go to the church, in the school they were punished or expelled or accused of being reds (death menace). It is easy.

To me, I had to study religion even if I didn't want, it was compulsory.

[Chris]

What a bunch of BS. 'Liberal project of egalitarianism and administrative efficiency,' huh, where'd that come from. I wish people like Michael Brendan Dougherty would stick to what they know. Religious liberty is a liberal value, liberty means freedom to be religious. And what the heck is our 'monocultural elite class?' Anyone know? Arizona legislators chose to enforce one religion, the veto had nothing to do with egalitarianism, had lots to do with money and hopefully for some our constitutional freedoms.


Within the confines of your religion you can be as un-free as you like, but outside that place other values and laws take precedent.
Medicare is fundamentally a single payer system and I don't hear of religious conflicts there, do you? As a Catholic, I can tell you quite simply, few if any today do not use contraceptive methods. Contraception is merely a distraction in a complex topic. I wonder how many could live in a world in which sex was only about the propagation of the faith, the original Catholic concept. As far as the state's so called ideology, the purpose of the state is to support (and sometimes enforce) policies that work for all people and not write or interpret law based on religious canon.

He's talking about progressives like you, midcan, who seek to level the social order and replace it with the state.

[Chris]

$#@!, I was clear.

To my parents, if they didn't go to the church, in the school they were punished. It is easy.

You were clear with metaphors. You were "forced" to study, your parents were "forced" to attend church.

How so? How were you punished? For what? How were your parents punished?

[Mister D]

What a bunch of BS. 'Liberal project of egalitarianism and administrative efficiency,' huh, where'd that come from...

If you don't know that egalitarianism is part and parcel of liberal political theory I have to ask whether you actually read any of the texts you copy and paste from. Seriously, get over your crush on Chris. It makes you do stupid things.

[kilgram]

You were clear with metaphors. You were "forced" to study, your parents were "forced" to attend church.

How so? How were you punished? For what? How were your parents punished?

Punished. Is it some kind of difficult word for you? Or what? Hitting in the hands, arse or other methods used by the teachers in their schools, and read my last edited answer, I improved the answer that you were answering with this.

Being religion compulsory. If you didn't attend you didn't pass the course.

There was no $#@!ing metaphor.

[Peter1469]

Chris has a different view of the word clear. You are doing fine.

$#@!, I was clear.

To my parents, if they didn't go to the church, in the school they were punished or expelled or accused of being reds (death menace). It is easy.

To me, I had to study religion even if I didn't want, it was compulsory.

[Chris]

If you don't know that egalitarianism is part and parcel of liberal political theory I have to ask whether you actually read any of the texts you copy and paste from. Seriously, get over your crush on Chris. It makes you do stupid things.

How midcan misses the basic contradiction of the liberal desire for egalitarianism and diversity is amazing. A simple example from the OP article suffices, despite the diverse beliefs about contraception the liberal state want all to share in the purchase of it.

[Chris]

Punished. Is it some kind of difficult word for you? Or what? Hitting in the hands, arse or other methods used by the teachers in their schools, and read my last edited answer, I improved the answer that you were answering with this.

Being religion compulsory. If you didn't attend you didn't pass the course.

There was no $#@!ing metaphor.

OK, thanks, I just wanted you to be specific. Hitting your hands etc, yes, I experienced that too: I recall one frail little nun, shorter than me even back then, who used a pingpong paddle to rap your knuckles. First time she took me in the supply room, grasped my hand in hers and raised the paddle I said you don't want to do that. She look puzzled, but the paddle came down hard as she could right across the knuckles of her own hand. Told you so, I told her, and now you know what it feels like. Oh it was a big to do, my parents called and words were exchanged about the little troublemaker. In the end absolutely nothing happened. The nuns had no power, but what parents permitted them. So it wasn't really the nuns, kilgram, but your parents raising you as they saw fit.

And I'm sure the nuns nor priests hit the hands, arse or anything of your parents.

The reason I want you to be specific, concrete, instead of abstract and metaphorical, is truly they have no power. As the anarchist Godwin so eloquently articulated.

Don't get angry. Sometimes it's necessary to cut through the fog of words. They have no power, they have influence, and mostly through your parents as a kid, and then through what they taught you to believe in later life. It is nothing like the power of the state.

My experience in Catholic and secular/public school was this, generally. While the religious school would punish you it usually amounted to extra schooling, staying in during recess or after school for more lessons. The public school punished you by sending you home, suspending you, if not kicking you out altogether, which, while it was a reward to kids, did more damage in the long run.