Communism and Nationalism

[Chris]

Broadly speaking communism aims to be global, nationalism local, but both tend to be imperialistic. Of course when it's against us it's bad and when it's us it's good, lol.

[Chris]

Nationalism is identifying with ones nation, an attachment to it. It does not require the next step of superiority over other nations. And then there are different types of superior feelings.

You have the Nazi version = bad.
And you have the American (exceptionalism) version = good.

Well, the American version is not good, neither.

Nationalism is always bad. Just depends of the level of the infection. Nazism is the highest level of this infection and so it is extremely harmful. American nationalism and its exceptionalism is high and so it is dangerous and harmful. However it is nothing compared to the one of Nazism, but don't get wrong it is bad.

Nationalism is a dangerous thing that permits control the minds of the people and get authority over them.

Patriotism is the same $#@!, just another name. Loving the Patria or the nation is as absurd as loving god.

Agree. See This Crazy World.

[Chris]

People are ultimately divided by class more than they are ethnicity. One only needs to take a glimpse at the tensions that exist in Western cities between the naturalized population and immigrant enclaves, which tend to spring more from conflict over jobs and property than cultural trivialities (the two tendencies do tend to complement one-another, mind).

Communism and nationalism definitely aren't incompatible. The Viet Minh (Vietnam), Sandinistas (Nicaragua), PLO (Israel / Palestine), Zapatistas (Mexico) and MPLA (Angola) are just a few examples of national liberation movements which adopted Marxist and socialist principles.

People are ultimately divided by class more than they are ethnicity. One only needs to take a glimpse at the tensions that exist in Western cities between the naturalized population and immigrant enclaves, which tend to spring more from conflict over jobs and property than cultural trivialities (the two tendencies do tend to complement one-another, mind).

That somehow seems contradictory. The conflict between naturalized and immigrant populations are ethnic. They arise largely, I think, from a lack of trust, not knowing what to expect from the new neighbors. You see this I think in the Scandinavian countries which were largely socialist and liberal but now that immigrants are flowing in are turning more capitalist and conservative. Of course they start at the bottom with low paying jobs and little property, but over time, after a generation or two, assimilate--the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Polish, etc here

[kilgram]

That somehow seems contradictory. The conflict between naturalized and immigrant populations are ethnic. They arise largely, I think, from a lack of trust, not knowing what to expect from the new neighbors. You see this I think in the Scandinavian countries which were largely socialist and liberal but now that immigrants are flowing in are turning more capitalist and conservative. Of course they start at the bottom with low paying jobs and little property, but over time, after a generation or two, assimilate--the Irish, the Germans, the Italians, the Polish, etc here

It is purely classist. Poors vs rich. Nothing else.

The Scandnavian countries are a good example of failure of capitalism.

Now that they are embracing more capitalism they are increasing inequality, poverty, social injusticies...

[Chris]

I am a nationalist, but nationalism goes beyond just nations. Being a nationalist is no different than being a tribalist or a communitarian. In a tribal society, which is what anarchists like myself advocate, you are a nationalist for your tribe. Same goes for a communitarian society. You are a nationalist for your community.

People just often have knee-jerk reactions to the word "nationalist" that aren't particularly logical or rational. I am loyal to the place in which I live. If I leave America and become a citizen of, say, Scotland, I'll be a nationalist for Scotland. If I moved to Libya, I'd be a nationalist for Libya.

To live in a place, around millions of other people, and NOT have some strong desire to protect and defend that place, is just inhuman, in my opinion. Being a nationalist doesn't mean you support the government of your nation. It means you support the freedom and safety of the nation.

I find it difficult to separate nationalism from nation and align them with statism and state. Tribalism, communitarianism is more local, community oriented.

[Chris]

It is purely classist. Poors vs rich. Nothing else.

The Scandnavian countries are a good example of failure of capitalism.

Now that they are embracing more capitalism they are increasing inequality, poverty, social injusticies...

Seems particular to the progressive/communist view of things. See Kling on the Three Languages of Politics.

[Green Arrow]

I find it difficult to separate nationalism from nation and align them with statism and state. Tribalism, communitarianism is more local, community oriented.

When you have as extensive a network of contacts that you care about as I do, you can't afford to ignore what happens outside the community.

[kilgram]

Seems particular to the progressive/communist view of things. See Kling on the Three Languages of Politics.

Yes, and about this I guessed a good example:

- Chile of Pinochet for Libertarians was a good example of freedom and liberty.

- Chile of Pinochet for "Liberals" was a good example of pure oppression and antifreedom country.

[Chris]

When you have as extensive a network of contacts that you care about as I do, you can't afford to ignore what happens outside the community.

I understand that, just not nationalism, or calling it nationalism. Might just be me.

[Chris]

Yes, and about this I guessed a good example:

- Chile of Pinochet for Libertarians was a good example of freedom and liberty.

- Chile of Pinochet for "Liberals" was a good example of pure oppression and antifreedom country.

Chile was an example of coercion with libertarian advice to make it freer.

Oppression and freedom are on two different axes.