Democracy: ancient versus modern

[Chris]

Besides Burke, I'm just starting the read Bullock & Shock, eds, The Liberal Tradition from Fox to Keynes, a collection of speeches and essays by British liberals. So far, so good.

[KC]

Thanks!

I agree. We haven't improved on democracy. It's just that the modern conception developed in accord with modern values which resulted in systems that are in some ways very different from their ancient counterparts.

Why do you feel that way?

Actually, in a few ways we've improved it, chiefly by limiting it more than the ancients did.

Democracy, generally speaking, isn't a good system, it's just better than other systems tried thus far because, in the words of De Tocqueville, it allows us to "make retrievable mistakes." I interpret that quote more broadly than it was probably intended to mean, that the mistakes are not just policies but also the politicians.

Also, I think our individualism isn't the result of our democratic values but a product of enlightenment thought. Today, I think, individualism has been twisted in a way that is more or less incompatible with democracy.

[Mister D]

Actually, in a few ways we've improved it, chiefly by limiting it more than the ancients did.

Democracy, generally speaking, isn't a good system, it's just better than other systems tried thus far because, in the words of De Tocqueville, it allows us to "make retrievable mistakes." I interpret that quote more broadly than it was probably intended to mean, that the mistakes are not just policies but also the politicians.

Also, I think our individualism isn't the result of our democratic values but a product of enlightenment thought. Today, I think, individualism has been twisted in a way that is more or less incompatible with democracy.

By limiting it I assume you mean limiting the sovereignty of ‘the people’ and their participation in the political process. Ifthat is the case, I see it more as a departure from democratic theory than an improvement upon it. Yet rare is the modern politician who would dare not refer to himself a democrat. Why do we cloak ourselves in this language if in fact there really isn’t anything particularly democratic about our political system? We always talk about “the people” but we routinely surrender our sovereignty to elected representatives who, ironically, are almost never held in high esteem. We have a strange political culture.

Democracy as the least of a host of evils is hardly an argument for democracy. I also think it’s impossible to prove the assertion that democracy is a better system or that it won’t lead to despotism, brutality etc. Clearly we see that it can and has.

I agree that modern individualism is a product of the Enlightenment. Our democratic values are, IMO, primordial. We see democratic practices throughout European history. What do you mean when you say “individualism has been twisted in a way that is more or less incompatible with democracy”? I think that’s true in the sense that modern individualism results in atomization whereas the concept of “citizen” in the ancient world implied belonging and was linked to social life.

[Chris]

Actually, in a few ways we've improved it, chiefly by limiting it more than the ancients did.

Democracy, generally speaking, isn't a good system, it's just better than other systems tried thus far because, in the words of De Tocqueville, it allows us to "make retrievable mistakes." I interpret that quote more broadly than it was probably intended to mean, that the mistakes are not just policies but also the politicians.

Also, I think our individualism isn't the result of our democratic values but a product of enlightenment thought. Today, I think, individualism has been twisted in a way that is more or less incompatible with democracy.

That sounds like Churchill: "Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."



I would agree, Enlightened individualism changed the nature of democracy.

[Chris]

...Burke is a interesting liberal. Any suggestions when I visit Amazon.com?

Besides Burke, I'm just starting the read Bullock & Shock, eds, The Liberal Tradition from Fox to Keynes, a collection of speeches and essays by British liberals. So far, so good.

Here's a passage from that book that touches on two other conservative liberals, let us call them, the first, John Stuart Mill, surprising even, the second, John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton, not, for he was similar to Burke:




@Mister D