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Thread: George Armstrong Custer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    My point is that Lee didn't have to commit.
    he didn't of course, he could've consolidated and then withdrawn.

    let ' snot forget though, he won Day 1......and day 2 sees Longstreet lolligag on the flank motion which, because it took so long, hit an extended Union line instead of the flank of Cemetery Hill.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpublius View Post
    he didn't of course, he could've consolidated and then withdrawn.

    let ' snot forget though, he won Day 1......
    He did. But the Union army had so much advantage that its incompetence was not fatal. A good general would have ended the war with that battle- assuming that Lee committed his forces.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Lee attacked the Union army when the Union had the high ground. He didn't have to. He could have withdrawn in any other direction.
    Looking over the map, with good scouting, Lee ought to know that the South / South East was available to attack. What makes the Picket's charge so bad in my humble estimation is the open ground for the charge was super large. Made it easy to kill the attackers.

    When we study this battle and others, we must try to account for the terrible smoke that they had at that time. We use smokeless powder yet they used powder that made a lot of smoke.

    Lee knew how to use scouts. I am trying to recall the lay of the land on day 1 but if memory serves me, that attack came well past noon. Could be dead wrong.
    Meaning it left Lee not a lot more time for a follow up attack.

    I admit that I have not spent over 10 minutes studying that entire battle for all days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpublius View Post
    It was a war favoring the defense of course. The problem was that unlike WWI with trench lines unable to be flanked, a Civil War army could always be flanked. Here we're talking about two different things, the decision to fight at Gettysburg itself (I think the topography of the day leaves little choice, all roads in that theater lead to Gettysburg and then of course, once there, how to tactically proceed with the battle.

    I'll post my pictures from the Longstreet Tower, assaulting the center seems like suicide of course, but the Confederates do get to the 'High Tide' and if you think about it, that fence killed them.

    Ever see a crowd funnel through one door despite the ease a second door could be opened? Same effect here except opening the second door wouldn't have been as easy. That fence absolutely should've been addressed and Hill's corps should've been ready to go at dawn.

    and let's not forget, like Pickett said regarding the reason the Army of Northern VA lost at Gettysburg and he said, paraphrasing, "the army of the Potomac had something to do about it"
    I looked over the lines of formed offense and formed defense. Your depiction from Wikipedia showed troop movements.

    The well formed lines of the point of the Picket attack, show an open area to the South east and it seems to me that Lee should have gone for the part where the Union wasn't. Since he had to attack very wooded hills, the head on could have been best as done by Pickett were it not for that very huge open field. I believe he lost most of his men on that open field.

    It's been a decade since I stood there trying to understand Picket's charge and to this day, I do not understand it. First, with powders that smoke, visibility is cut way down. Maybe Lee felt it to be an advantage over the field. If so, I still think he had an option open. South east was open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    I looked over the lines of formed offense and formed defense. Your depiction from Wikipedia showed troop movements.
    Well, Peter is discussing a strategic movement, hence the map I selected. You're obviously discussing Day 3. If we look at that map we see the Union fishhook. The reason why its a fishhook is because Ewell to the north and Longstreet to the south are crimping the Union lines.

    Both positions were already the result of Confederate flanking attempts.

    Walking the field you'll be shocked to see a Confederate artillery position out on Benner's Hill.....

    Google that on google maps you'll see where it is of course, but its obviously cutting Hanover Road.

    So why not flank on the left farther? Well, because it was hard to do, that's why.

    Now google Big Round Top, and there's where you see how it would've been difficult for the Confederates to whack the Union left at that position, the only flank avenue there would've been Taneytown Road or to go even farther afield and to get to Baltimore Pike which is veering away from where the Confederates are coming from.

    Day 2 saw Longstreet essentially try to flank Cemetery Ridge by coming up Emmitsburg Road. THAT was a practical plan until Sickles stuck his nose out and the rest of that day is essentially the Confederates trying to creep to the right of that conflagration.

    The Union strength was in a fishhook, that's where the meat of the soldiers were, but they had pickets and guards and while the fishhook was hardened, that position still had some goose-egg in it.....

    Lee was not going to sweep into an unexpected flank like Lee did to Hooker at Chancelorsville....

    From Longstreet tower:

    Big Round top and then sweeping left across the Union lines from there












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    Just as an aside too Ewell had received orders to attack at dawn and its likely Longstreet did too and delayed.....that would've helped them....

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    http://www.civilwar.org/battlefields...flanks-of.html




    Note the map and the Union units, particularly in this instance straddling the road a flank attack would have to come from....

    the right flank of AoP is much farther curled back than you would think.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpublius View Post
    Well, Peter is discussing a strategic movement, hence the map I selected. You're obviously discussing Day 3. If we look at that map we see the Union fishhook. The reason why its a fishhook is because Ewell to the north and Longstreet to the south are crimping the Union lines.

    Both positions were already the result of Confederate flanking attempts.

    Walking the field you'll be shocked to see a Confederate artillery position out on Benner's Hill.....

    Google that on google maps you'll see where it is of course, but its obviously cutting Hanover Road.

    So why not flank on the left farther? Well, because it was hard to do, that's why.

    Now google Big Round Top, and there's where you see how it would've been difficult for the Confederates to whack the Union left at that position, the only flank avenue there would've been Taneytown Road or to go even farther afield and to get to Baltimore Pike which is veering away from where the Confederates are coming from.

    Day 2 saw Longstreet essentially try to flank Cemetery Ridge by coming up Emmitsburg Road. THAT was a practical plan until Sickles stuck his nose out and the rest of that day is essentially the Confederates trying to creep to the right of that conflagration.

    The Union strength was in a fishhook, that's where the meat of the soldiers were, but they had pickets and guards and while the fishhook was hardened, that position still had some goose-egg in it.....

    Lee was not going to sweep into an unexpected flank like Lee did to Hooker at Chancelorsville....

    From Longstreet tower:

    Big Round top and then sweeping left across the Union lines from there











    Wonderful photos. Brings me back to when I was there. I had family with me and only spent a bit of time trying to work out the details of the war at that site. I am thinking of day 3 with the fish hook and noticed the opening from the south. We also spent quite a bit of time inside the museum there. My Son in law took me to the grave of one of his relatives buried there.

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    I need to go back. I was there once with the ex- just after we got married. And she didn't wear real shoes so I had a hard time getting around to places that I wanted to. I ended up moving into places she could walk just to help her understand that she should have practicle shoes. She did get pretty pissed at me. And I bought her hiking boots for the next Christmas, which pissed her off again, but she understood on our next trips to Iceland and the Baltic states when we walked miles and miles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    I need to go back. I was there once with the ex- just after we got married. And she didn't wear real shoes so I had a hard time getting around to places that I wanted to. I ended up moving into places she could walk just to help her understand that she should have practicle shoes. She did get pretty pissed at me. And I bought her hiking boots for the next Christmas, which pissed her off again, but she understood on our next trips to Iceland and the Baltic states when we walked miles and miles.
    You see, I would actually suggest a different plan. Let your fiance be herself, let her go to Gettysburg and shop or go out to Boyds Bears.....whatever....and then you can walk/drive/bicycle the battlefield.....

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