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Thread: Catalans defy Spain

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    Catalans defy Spain

    So we have these independence movements. Next up is Catalonia. They moved for a referendum to become a new country and Spain tried to block them in the courts. Catalonia is resisting.

    Catalan leaders forged ahead for a vote on independence, defying a court challenge by the national government in their bid to redraw the map of Spain.




    Spain's Constitutional Court had provisionally blocked their plan for the vote, but parties in the northeastern region opted to launch a legal gamble.
    The fabric of post WWII Europe is coming apart. If history is a valid measure of the future, Europe will be engulfed in war again.
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    I think it's only a matter of time before all these independence movements are successful. Canada got their independence from Britain gradually, spanning from 1867 to 1982. Scotland's independence referendum would have jumpstarted the new independence movements, but the failure of the Yes campaign won't stop Scotland from eventually gaining independence, and with them, other people groups such as the Catalans from Spain, the Venetians from Italy, the Kurds from their neighbors.
    "Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most — that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least."
    - Eugene V. Debs (1855-1926), five-time Socialist Party candidate for U.S. President

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    Well, in Catalonia the things are not clear. For the good of the democracy the referendum should be done. But we have a government that fears democracy and with this fear is creating more independentists.

    It is not clear that the 9th of November the referendum will be done.

    I don't understand how the Spanish government does not copy the tactic of UK permitting to Catalonia to make the referendum. If they don't refuse, probably the results will be No to the independence. But with their decission it makes easier that Catalonia in the end say yes to independence.
    WORK AND FIGHT FOR THE REVOLUTION AND AGAINST THE INJUSTICE.

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    I imagine Spain is spooked- it would collapse without Catalonia.
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    Cool

    Spain could allow referendums, says FM...

    Catalonia crisis: Spain could allow referendums, says FM
    Wed, 08 Nov 2017 - Proposed constitutional changes to allow votes on independence are a response to the Catalan crisis.
    Spain is considering constitutional changes that could allow its regions to hold referendums on independence in the future, the foreign minister says. Alfonso Dastis has told the BBC a nationwide vote on the issue could be held. The move is in recognition of the events in Catalonia, where the regional government was deposed after a unilateral declaration of independence. Protests were held against the detention of the region's ex-leaders. Meanwhile, Spain's constitutional court has ruled that the declaration of independence was "unconstitutional and void".


    Demonstrators gathered in front of the Catalan government building in Barcelona

    What has the foreign minister said?

    "We have created a committee in parliament to explore the possibility of amending the constitution to be able to accommodate better the aspirations of some of the Catalan people," Mr Dastis told the BBC. "We acknowledge there is a political situation that deserves to be looked at but, in any case, it's clear that the decision will be taken, will have to be taken by all Spaniards." He also said he was sorry if people got hurt during the banned referendum last month, but that there was no disproportionate use of force. He had previously said some pictures of violence were "fake".

    An olive branch to separatists

    This appears to be an olive branch to supporters of separatism in Catalonia, who are protesting once again across the region. It offers the prospect of a referendum to change the Spanish constitution and therefore make it legally possible to hold a referendum on Catalan independence. But what that means in effect, is that the entire population of Spain - 47 million people - would vote on whether Catalonia should have the right to self-determination. Alfonso Dastis said the legal change might help resolve the Catalan crisis for future generations. But it is a far cry from what deposed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont had called for, the right for Catalans only to decide.


    Police tried to remove protesters blocking a street in Barcelona

    What about the protests?

    Some major roads and rail services were still blocked as part of demonstrations called by pro-independence groups. Minor scuffles were reported earlier when police moved in to remove protesters. Hundreds of people also gathered in front of Catalonia's presidential palace in Barcelona. A call for a general strike was not backed by the region's major unions, and shops and businesses opened as normal. Universities and some schools were affected. Eight politicians are being held in an investigation by Madrid authorities into alleged rebellion and sedition linked to the declaration of independence.

    What else is happening?
    See also:

    Puigdemont criticizes EU leaders for not condemning Spain
    7 Nov.`17 - Former Catalonia leader Carles Puigdemont has urged the region’s political forces to come together against Spain.
    Puigdemont, who is waiting for extradition news from Belgium, criticised European leaders for not condemning Spain for prosecuting Catalan officials. He was speaking at an interview in Brussels with Catalan public radio. The ousted Catalonian leader said that there is an "absolute disconnect between the interests of the people and the European elites" and that Catalonia's problem is an "issue of human rights that requires maximum attention." Puigdemont is currently fighting extradition to Spain where a number of the ousted leaders have been sent to jail.


    Puigdemont has been living in Belgium since Spain dissolved the Catalan parliament and called an election in the region, scheduled to be held on December 21. Meanwhile, pro-secession parties reportedly want the vote to become a de facto independence referendum. Two of those parties, Puigdemont’s PDeCAT and the ERC party, said during the weekend that they might contest the election on a combined ticket. Puigdemont said in a tweet, “We don't have any other alternative but to run all of us together.” However, to do that, they would need to register before midnight of November 7 and experts believe that the time to bridge their differences is very little.

    Puigdemont, in his interview, also added, “The ideal would be a broad regional list of parties... that stand for democracy and freedom,” ERC’s spokesman Sergi Sabria has said that it will consider coalition if other parties join them too. Puigdemont received complete support of 200 Catalan mayors earlier this week, who attended a rally in Brussels. They called for continued non-violent resistance. Toni Comin, one of the four former cabinet members in Brussels, said, “Perhaps the path toward freedom will be longer than we thought, but it continues and we haven’t given up.”

    http://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/2...ndemning-spain

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    Question

    Granny says, "Dat's right - if at first ya don't secede, do it over again...

    Polls Open: Catalans Head to Polls in Independence Vote
    December 21, 2017 — Catalonia holds a regional election Thursday that the Spanish government hopes will strip pro-independence parties of their control of the Catalan parliament and end their campaign to force a split with Spain.
    Voting began at 9 a.m. Thursday and the nearly 2,700 polling stations will remain open until 8 p.m. (1900 GMT). But, though final polls showed separatist and unionist parties running neck-and-neck, an effective pro-independence majority remains a likely outcome that would jolt financial markets and cast a long shadow over national politics. With a record turnout expected, the more than one-fifth who are undecided among the 5.5 million eligible voters could shift the election outcome. Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy called the Dec. 21 vote in October in the hopes of returning Catalonia to “normality” under a unionist government. He sacked its previous government for holding a banned referendum and declaring independence.



    People buy items at a stall street in Barcelona, Spain, Monday, Dec. 18, 2017. Jittery businessmen in Catalonia have put their investment plans on ice as they brace for the region's parliamentary election


    Economy


    A new separatist majority would further dampen investors’ confidence in Catalonia, which by itself has an economy larger than that of Portugal and is the main driver of Spain’s economic growth. However, pro-independence leaders recently have backed away from demands for unilateral secession. The independence campaign pitched Spain into its worst political turmoil since the collapse of fascist rule and return of democracy in the 1970s. It has polarized public opinion, dented Spain’s economic rebound and prompted a business exodus from Catalonia to other parts of the country. Thursday’s vote became a de facto referendum on how support for the independence movement has fared in recent months.



    A woman stands near a Spanish flag in Plaza Colon (Columbus Square) on the eve of regional elections in Catalonia in Madrid



    No clear majority


    None of the six parties in the Catalan parliament — ranging across the ideological spectrum from separatist Marxists to the Catalan wing of Rajoy’s conservative People’s Party (PP) — are expected on their own to come close to the 68-seat majority. So, analysts expect the next Catalan government to result from weeks of haggling between parties over viable coalitions. An analysis of polling data by the Madrid daily El Pais published on Tuesday found that the most likely scenario is separatists securing a majority with the backing or abstention of the Catalan offshoot of anti-austerity party Podemos. Podemos backs the unity of Spain but says Catalans should be able to have a referendum authorized by Madrid to decide their future. At the same time, Podemos favors a left-wing alliance of Catalan parties that both back and reject independence.



    Ousted Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont addresses Catalan mayors who traveled to Brussels in support of the ousted Catalan government in Brussels, Belgium


    In this, analysts say, Podemos is caught between two options it does not particularly like, but would prefer to back the separatists rather than a coalition involving Rajoy’s PP. Separatist parties campaigned against the backdrop of Spanish courts investigating their leaders on allegations of rebellion for their roles in the Oct. 1 referendum, which was ruled unconstitutional. Deposed Catalan President Carles Puigdemont has campaigned from self-imposed exile in Brussels and his former deputy and now rival candidate, Oriol Junqueras, has done so from behind bars at a prison outside Madrid. In a written interview with Reuters published on Monday, Junqueras struck a conciliatory tone and opened the door to building bridges with the Spanish state.


    https://www.voanews.com/a/catalonia-...e/4172882.html
    Last edited by waltky; 12-21-2017 at 04:13 AM.

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    Update:

    Spanish Supreme Court sentences Catalan separatists to prison, sparking protests

    9 Catalan separatist leaders were sentenced to prison terms between 9 and 13 years. I assume they will appeal to an EU appeals court. I am interested is what they will do.

    Read the article at the link.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    So we have these independence movements. Next up is Catalonia. They moved for a referendum to become a new country and Spain tried to block them in the courts. Catalonia is resisting.



    The fabric of post WWII Europe is coming apart. If history is a valid measure of the future, Europe will be engulfed in war again.
    Interesting.

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    And now the region is erupt in protests. Who could have predicted that?

    MADRID (AP) — Catalonia’s separatist leader vowed Thursday to hold a new vote to secede from Spain in less than two years as the embattled northeastern region grapples with a wave of violence that has tarnished a movement proud of its peaceful activism.

    “We can’t remain in this cage that keeps adding bars,” Quim Torra told lawmakers. “If we have been condemned to 100 years in prison for putting out the ballot boxes, the response is clear: we’ll have to put the ballot boxes out again for self-determination.”

    Lengthy prison sentences and fines for a dozen leaders that Spain’s Supreme Court blames for orchestrating the wealthy region’s latest drive for independence have led this week to some of the darkest episodes in a decade of swelling separatist sentiment.
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