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Thread: Seal hunting: Adelaide vs. Chloe

  1. #151
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    IMPress Polly's Avatar Senior Member
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    That sounds fine to me. The state it is then, I guess! Alyosha, you can set up the topic next Wednesday, stating your position, then I'll respond early the next morning.

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  3. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Alyosha and I have already pretty well fleshed out our similarities and differences on feminism in the abstract, I think, so if we were to pick something related to gender issues, we might then want to pick something fairly specific. For example, I was thinking of maybe at some point debating one of our other feminists here* on the role of girls and women in Disney films, as I actually think a lot of feminists focus their attention on criticizing Disney too much because modern Disney is actually among the most feminist of all the major movie companies (save perhaps for Lion's Gate). I'm in the mood to offer a critical defense of the Disney princesses, both old and new (but especially new) if only to refocus us on criticizing companies that are doing much worse!

    * In my mind, the "other feminists here" include (for the girls) Adelaide, PolWatch, Chloe, Amazon, and Alyosha, and (for the guys) Green Arrow, KC, Codename Section, and The Xl. (My definition of "feminist" excludes those who deny the existence of patriarchy.) I'd be up for debating any of them on the referenced subject. Any takers?





    Wait, the EXISTENCE of the state is in question?

    Seriously though, the state sounds like a good topic, if by the state you mean the same thing I do anyway (police, military, courts, prisons). We have some things in common in this area to fall back on (like a belief that the state can and should at least ultimately be abolished), so we wouldn't have to debate the basics of whether the instruments of the state are fundamentally good or bad, and those parameters would help make it a productive debate, methinks. By contrast, "the supernatural" might not be a very productive debate, as, coming from the negative standpoint on that issue, I wouldn't really have to say anything other than "I see no evidence" to make my case. The entire burden of proof would lie with you. Not much to debate there that I can see.

    Anyway, I should mention that we should delay any debate until next week, as I'm going to be swamped this week (I'm doing the planning for a birthday party that happens to also fall on Halloween in my fairly minimal spare time) and this weekend I'll only be on briefly and will be focused on posting my official election prediction. Next week I'll probably have several decent opportunities in the early mornings to debate though.

    How about their track record with "mouseteers?"

  4. #153
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    I honestly wouldn't know. I've never watched The Mickey Mouse Club before. I was referring to animated motion pictures mainly. The essence of my commentary in defense of Disney in this sense would be as follows: That, even in the olden days (1930s-'50s), Walt Disney Pictures was doing something almost revolutionary just in making movies for girls at all. Their competition almost never did so, enabling Disney to pretty much corner that market...and thus become disproportionately susceptible to feminist scrutiny and critiques only because girls actually watched a lot of their movies! Think: If it hadn't been for Disney, film-watching would've been thought of the same way video games have been thought of for decades, pretty much until recently: as a hobby meant for boys and men. In fact, Disney still makes more movies (and TV shows also today, for that matter) for girls today than most of their competition even today, and pretty much corners the preteen girls market.

    Now certainly Disney does deserve the criticisms they get from feminists generally, but I'm just arguing that the lopsided focus on critiquing Disney specifically is excessive when you place these things back in their historical context and in perspective, relative to how their competition portrayed/portrays girls and women in as far as those others even bother to. Walt Disney Pictures (which I'm notably distinguishing from Pixar, Disney Princess, and other Disney subsidiaries) has also evolved a lot over the last 25 years in terms of how they represent women on-screen. 25 years ago, we were at The Little Mermaid, which presents young girls with the message that if you're determined enough, look really, really good, and learn to shut up, one day the dashing rich guy of your dreams will solve all your problems by marrying you (or at least that was the message I got from it when I saw it in theaters and on videocassette; it was the first movie I saw in theaters). That, mind you, was the first animated motion picture Disney had made for girls in 30 years. After that though, the company discovered it had a gold mine on its hands and decided to resume its long-neglected princess movie pattern. Their messages started getting more progressive over the next decade, and by 1998 we had arrived at Mulan: the first, and so far only, Disney animated motion picture to star a female action hero (and my favorite Disney cartoon movie to date)! These days, Walt Disney Pictures makes a new movie a year or so and rotates out whether the main target audience will be boys or girls annually. Frozen is their latest movie for girls. I think when I highlight movies like Mulan, Lilo and Stitch, Wreck-It Ralph, and Frozen, you can easily see progress in the way the company portrays the female sex compared against say Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, 101 Dalmations (which I count as the most openly sexist Disney movie ever), and The Little Mermaid...or even compared against most of their competition (again, save perhaps for Lion's Gate). Walt Disney Pictures typically portrays girls and women as independent these days and tends to refrain from overtly sexualizing their female characters. The most recent Disney cartoon film for girls, Frozen, also has extensive interactions between multiple female characters that don't revolve around boys and men (a rare feat for Hollywood movies) and (in another rare feat for Hollywood) was co-directed by a woman. It was 2013's only top-10-grossing film to have a female director!

    While Pixar still sucks when it comes to matters of gender and the Disney Princess line fails to capture the progressive spirit of modern Disney films (e.g. why are girls sold Mulan's traditional Chinese dress that she hated in the movie instead of her armor, which she liked the most, finding it the most comfortable?), Walt Disney Pictures itself has reached a place of near-gender-parity in the way it represents girls and women on-screen. Now faults remain (e.g. why are the Frozen princess's eyes still bigger than their wrists?), but these criticisms seem secondary when compared to what we could say about most of Walt Disney Pictures' competition, which still rarely bothers to even make movies for girls at all!
    Last edited by IMPress Polly; 11-01-2014 at 08:52 AM.

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  6. #154
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    You never watched The Mickey Mouse Club?
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  7. #155
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    I've heard the theme song and watched like a couple of random sequences at different times (the contents of which I can't even remember now), but that's all. Now my mom says that she watched it all the time and loved it as a kid, but she predates me by 35 years.

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    oh me. I remember Annette Funicello before she gave up her Mouse ears for a bikini & a beach blanket...

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  11. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    It is my belief based on information provided by government agencies about the increase in the seal population starting in 1970, the regulations in place by the government which are fluid based on yearly data, and the humane way sealers are taught to kill seals that sealing in Canada should be permitted.
    It is a slaughter and a horror still. It was never good and won't get better. Many Inuk are against the commercial mass killing of baby seals still. I thought this was done and never going to be brought back in this way.

    Look up the Commercial Seal Hunt 2011 - IFAW videos.
    Last edited by Minotaur; 11-02-2014 at 03:26 PM.

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    Matty
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    That film is $#@!ing disgusting. I got infracted for showing one like it. Maybe the same one! It's still $#@!ing disgusting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matalese View Post
    That film is $#@!ing disgusting. I got infracted for showing one like it. Maybe the same one! It's still $#@!ing disgusting.
    There was a warning about the graphic video. If it was sick, you chose to open it.
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    It is quite simple Chloe, you were correct with information you brought to the table. The reason this issue is so discouraging is it is one of the few hunts that involves mass killing of baby seals in a brutal way and baby "anything" as a target are as relatable to humans as puppies.

    Our genetic makeup is programmed with some emotional limits so the argument for bashing baby seals just doesn't fly even for many Inuit.

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