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Thread: Plastic and the Oceans

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    Polecat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    Trees are renewable if you purposefully grow fast growing trees for paper, bags, etc. Pawlonia reach maturity within 5-7 years.

    Plastics are petroleum based products and are just not good for you. I don't drink out of plastic. I pay more for non-petro products. I don't endorse the use of plastic, especially for women because the breakdown of plastic creates chemicals that your body mistakes for estrogen, promoting weight gain and breast cancer.

    I'd rather us create tree farms for paper sacs, and use glass again for bottles.
    We use an awful lot of petroleum and plastic would be a 100% waste byproduct if we did not use it. This would be very wasteful. What would we do with it?

    Fast growing wood is not a sound practice in my opinion due to the wildlife impact. A stand of trees will provide for population expansion then when it gets harvested the animals will suffer.
    My beliefs are a distillation of what I was taught as a child and what I observe as an adult.

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    PolWatch's Avatar Senior Member
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    Southern white pine are grown for the production of pulpwood in my area. It takes appx 15 years for a tree to be large enough to be harvested. They are grown on managed timber farms that provide habitat for wildlife and are immediately replanted after harvest. The number of timber farms has been greatly reduced with the increased use of plastic bags.

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    Polecat's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chloe View Post
    In my opinion reusable bags, or reusing bags, should be pushed more. I am perfectly fine banning plastic bags being used at places like grocery stores, restaurants, retail shops, and places like that, and I also think that there should be a charge if you need to use paper bags from the store if you don't bring your own bags when you go buy your groceries. Some people may find that to be totalitarian or something but I think it's logical and necessary.
    It could be done in a non totalitarian way. The key here is we don't up and "pass a law" banning the plastic bag. This will piss off enough people that it won't last if passes in the first place. A more effective measure would be to talk stores into selling reusable bags along side the disposable ones, for the same price. It would catch on and far fewer people would be outraged. There is always a way to coax better behavior.
    My beliefs are a distillation of what I was taught as a child and what I observe as an adult.

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    Alyosha's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polecat View Post
    We use an awful lot of petroleum and plastic would be a 100% waste byproduct if we did not use it. This would be very wasteful. What would we do with it?
    That is how plastic began as a byproduct, but now we distill petroleum for the purpose of plastic. It is plastic that is the backbone of the petro-industry since we've become addicted to its use.


    Fast growing wood is not a sound practice in my opinion due to the wildlife impact. A stand of trees will provide for population expansion then when it gets harvested the animals will suffer.
    Except that's not really how it's done. You have layers of trees at a tree farm and typically they keep wildlife out. Wildlife harms the trees. I know in the south of the US they do loblolly pines for growth but that's not the type of sustainable tree farming I'm talking about since that's still 15-20 years to get a harvest.
    And if we should die tonight
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolWatch View Post
    Southern white pine are grown for the production of pulpwood in my area. It takes appx 15 years for a tree to be large enough to be harvested. They are grown on managed timber farms that provide habitat for wildlife and are immediately replanted after harvest. The number of timber farms has been greatly reduced with the increased use of plastic bags.
    That is the main problem with plastic. It is CHEAP.
    My beliefs are a distillation of what I was taught as a child and what I observe as an adult.

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    one advantage to the southern pine is that 15 years gives both useable lumber & pulpwood...none of the tree is wasted. It is not unusual to have timber farms here open for deer hunting as private clubs. Its a renewable resource that provides income to land owner, timber harvesters, sawmills & paper mills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polecat View Post
    That is the main problem with plastic. It is CHEAP.
    Sand is cheap. Trees are cheap. Petroleum is only cheap when we have a regulatory system and cartel supporting it.
    And if we should die tonight
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    That is how plastic began as a byproduct, but now we distill petroleum for the purpose of plastic. It is plastic that is the backbone of the petro-industry since we've become addicted to its use.
    Depending on the crude there is going to be a certain percentage of all the materials present that will be separated and used. There is not much margin on what we can force out of a barrel. Making good use of all of it is sound practice. The trend of fuel usage has been going down over the last 20 years and this has actually driven the price of the other byproducts up as they become more in demand. It is a complicated balancing act for us to burn enough gasoline and diesel to generate enough of the asphalt, plastic, butane etc. that the market is hungry for.
    Except that's not really how it's done. You have layers of trees at a tree farm and typically they keep wildlife out. Wildlife harms the trees. I know in the south of the US they do loblolly pines for growth but that's not the type of sustainable tree farming I'm talking about since that's still 15-20 years to get a harvest.
    I prefer the idea of getting people used to reusable bags over the wholesale return to paper. Even though it is biodegradable it is still not recycled enough. It takes up space in the landfill that needs to be reserved for actual garbage.
    Last edited by Polecat; 11-07-2014 at 02:33 PM.
    My beliefs are a distillation of what I was taught as a child and what I observe as an adult.

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    but pole, the cats love paper sacks! The world's cheapest, best cat toy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polecat View Post
    Depending on the crude there is going to be a certain percentage of all the materials present that will be separated and used. There is not much margin on what we can force out of a barrel. Making good use of all of it is sound practice. The trend of fuel usage has been going down over the last 20 years and this has actually driven the price of the other byproducts up as they become more in demand. It is a complicated balancing act for us to burn enough gasoline and diesel to generate enough of the asphalt, plastic, butane etc. that the market is hungry for.
    Good use is superfluous when medical plastics, bottling plastics, makeup, etc is more required than gasoline.


    I prefer the idea of getting people used to reusable bags over the wholesale return to paper. Even though it is biodegradable it is still not recycled enough. It takes up space in the landfill that needs to be reserved for actual garbage.
    The whole petrochemical industry causes harm, both in the drilling and the production. I'm not keen on it as someone who over time developed allergies to these products. I actually went into the hospital from makeup. I was shocked that I had developed the allergy at 30. Wasn't very fun.
    And if we should die tonight
    Then we should all die together
    Raise a glass of wine for the last time
    Calling out father, prepare as we will
    Watch the flames burn auburn on the mountain side
    Desolation comes upon the sky..

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