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Thread: Green Arrow vs. GrassrootsConservative: Conservatism, Liberalism, and Tradition

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    Green Arrow vs. GrassrootsConservative: Conservatism, Liberalism, and Tradition

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    Definitions of "conservative," "liberal," and "tradition" in the context of this discussion:

    Conservatism - a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual developmentto abrupt change

    Liberalism -
    a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essentialgoodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties

    Tradition -
    a way of thinking, behaving, or doing something that has been used by the people in a particular group, family, society, etc., for a long time; the stories, beliefs, etc., that have been part of the culture of a group of people for a long time




    @GrassrootsConservative, do you agree to the rule and the definitions?
    "A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all-knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962), American social activist and First Lady of the United States

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    Yes, I agree with most of that. Not sure why tradition is defined though. Tradition means different things to different people, and the kind talked about in the definition of Conservatism, at least in the American sense of the term, is things like the founding documents and the idea of freedom. We should also define progress if we're going to define tradition, because that's just as subjective. The things Liberals are currently doing is not at all progress to me, except in the way that it destroys our traditions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassrootsConservative View Post
    Yes, I agree with most of that. Not sure why tradition is defined though. Tradition means different things to different people, and the kind talked about in the definition of Conservatism, at least in the American sense of the term, is things like the founding documents and the idea of freedom. We should also define progress if we're going to define tradition, because that's just as subjective. The things Liberals are currently doing is not at all progress to me, except in the way that it destroys our traditions.
    No, tradition means one thing, as I described. Everyone has different traditions, but the definition of tradition does not change. There's a difference.

    "Progress" is too nebulous to nail down.
    "A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all-knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962), American social activist and First Lady of the United States

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    Really? Because these are the full definition(s) of Tradition as defined by Merriam-Webster:

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tradition
    tra·di·tion

    noun \trə-ˈdi-shən\: a way of thinking, behaving, or doing something that has been used by the people in a particular group, family, society, etc., for a long time
    : the stories, beliefs, etc., that have been part of the culture of a group of people for a long time
    —used to say that someone has qualities which are like the qualities of another well-known person or group of people from the past










    Full Definition of TRADITION

    1
    a : an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (as a religious practice or a social custom)
    b : a belief or story or a body of beliefs or stories relating to the past that are commonly accepted as historical though not verifiable

    2
    : the handing down of information, beliefs, and customs by word of mouth or by example from one generation to another without written instruction

    3
    : cultural continuity in social attitudes, customs, and institutions

    4 : characteristic manner, method, or style <in the best liberal tradition>




    Tradition is a few different things and to define it like you did is a very limited look at tradition.

    It is also quite nebulous, just as much as progress, because the two words are antonyms. When you move towards tradition you move away from progress. When you move towards progress you move away from your traditions, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassrootsConservative View Post
    Really? Because these are the full definition(s) of Tradition as defined by Merriam-Webster:

    Tradition is a few different things and to define it like you did is a very limited look at tradition.
    I specifically said that I was using the definition for the context of this debate. That's how multiple definitions of a word work, each applies to different contexts.

    Besides that, all the definitions are incredibly similar and essentially mean the same thing.

    It is also quite nebulous, just as much as progress, because the two words are antonyms. When you move towards tradition you move away from progress. When you move towards progress you move away from your traditions, no?
    I wouldn't agree with that, not at all. I believe it is possible to progress without giving up traditions. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    "A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all-knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962), American social activist and First Lady of the United States

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Arrow View Post
    I specifically said that I was using the definition for the context of this debate. That's how multiple definitions of a word work, each applies to different contexts.

    Besides that, all the definitions are incredibly similar and essentially mean the same thing.



    I wouldn't agree with that, not at all. I believe it is possible to progress without giving up traditions. The two are not mutually exclusive.
    That's fine, I'll use that definition if you want, I'm just saying I think if you define it you're already putting it in too small of a box.

    With the exception of a few, you're right. I happen to think #3 fits best here. Could we use that one? That one is the exact opposite of "progress."

    If the two are not mutually exclusive what are we even debating? If you can have both the old and the new why do Conservatives and Liberals even have different sides? Even in reading the definitions it's clear the two terms are meant as opposites. One based on tradition, the other on progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GrassrootsConservative View Post
    That's fine, I'll use that definition if you want, I'm just saying I think if you define it you're already putting it in too small of a box.

    With the exception of a few, you're right. I happen to think #3 fits best here. Could we use that one? That one is the exact opposite of "progress."
    Sure.

    If the two are not mutually exclusive what are we even debating? If you can have both the old and the new why do Conservatives and Liberals even have different sides? Even in reading the definitions it's clear the two terms are meant as opposites. One based on tradition, the other on progress.
    Definitions are free from ideological differences. They just are, words mean what they mean. There's nothing in any of those definitions that opposes progress, unless you think progress means progressing away from tradition.
    "A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all-knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962), American social activist and First Lady of the United States

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    Sounds good. Gotta run.

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    So, rather than a traditional opening statement, I'm going to open with a question for you, @GrassrootsConservative:

    You consider yourself a conservative. Given that we've agreed on the definitions of "conservative" and "tradition" already, how can you reconcile your claim of conservatism with your hatred of religion? Keeping in mind that America has a deep tradition of religious adherence and belief just as old and deep as its tradition of freedom and egalitarianism.
    "A mature person is one who does not think only in absolutes, who is able to be objective even when deeply stirred emotionally, who has learned that there is both good and bad in all people and all things, and who walks humbly and deals charitably with the circumstances of life, knowing that in this world no one is all-knowing and therefore all of us need both love and charity."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (1884-1962), American social activist and First Lady of the United States

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Arrow View Post
    So, rather than a traditional opening statement, I'm going to open with a question for you, @GrassrootsConservative:

    You consider yourself a conservative. Given that we've agreed on the definitions of "conservative" and "tradition" already, how can you reconcile your claim of conservatism with your hatred of religion? Keeping in mind that America has a deep tradition of religious adherence and belief just as old and deep as its tradition of freedom and egalitarianism.
    Well I'm much more interested in freedom of religion than religion itself. I feel like that's probably more of a tradition in American than Christianity is, especially when you look at how our founders twisted it and didn't adhere to many of the original beliefs, such as loving all of "god's" creatures, including blacks which they enslaved. Freedom of religion goes along with all other freedoms, and I don't think religion plays much of a role in politics, at least I hope not given how so many religions have as part of their agenda the destruction of other religions and their people.

    I might ask the same of you, how your Liberal beliefs might line up with your Norse religion, which is an even older tradition than American Christianity. I won't though, because frankly it doesn't matter to me, but suffice to say I feel my anti-religious views have no effect on the determination I have to pursue political Conservatism.

    /Edit: And to my point that freedom of religion is a greater tradition than Christianity is, look at our history of policies in relation to immigration. You do not have to be a Christian to come to America, but you do have to respect other religions and their peoples' freedoms to worship who they wish or to not worship at all.
    Last edited by GrassrootsConservative; 11-22-2014 at 12:14 AM.

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