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Thread: The Morality of Georgism

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    We have strayed from the topic again so this may address many of @Chris's concerns and save me the trouble

    A dialogue between a Rothbardian and Georgist:



    https://rulingclass.wordpress.com/20...sm-once-again/


    Interesting, while the blog piece, "Defending Georgism, Once Again," claims a defense of Georgism, it links to HERBERT, A BRILLIANT REFUTATION OF GEORGISM by Wendy McElroy, an individualist feminist and individualist anarchist, who opens with:

    In the August 1898 issue of The Free Life, Auberon Herbert offers the best and most complete refutation of Georgism and the single-tax that I have ever read. He is utterly brilliant. Due to the length of his argument and, so, the length of transcription time, I am presenting the article in two parts. In each part, Herbert is responding to a letter received from a single-taxer friend. Because the friend's points are repeated verbatim by Herbert within his refutation of them, I do not present the original letter but, instead, dive right into the incomparable words of Herbert himself.
    Here's the refutation in the second part:

    R.W.[the friend]--"1. The rights of all in respect of all the gifts of nature are initially equal. Hence no dealing with the soil on the part of any person can be initially justifiable if it places any other person, who may wish hereafter to deal with it, at a disadvantage. By 'initially' is here meant 'in default of any arrangement for redressing the balance of advantage.'"

    Auberon Herbert: "The rights of all in respect of all the gifts of nature are initially equal." I think this means either nothing, or everything that the Socialist asks for. Initially we are all equal in the sense that every man, who can get there, may go to the Klondike, or may search for and occupy uninhabited islands, or look for the diamond on the shore. 'Initially' where property is not yet appropriated or owned we are all equal in our rights; but when property is already owned, then equal rights to all gifts of nature no longer exist, unless you accept the Socialist doctrine that property cannot by some mysterious and as yet unexplained law belong to the individual but only to the mass of individuals--a sheer contradiction in thought, since what John Smith cannot do, a thousand John Smiths cannot do. My friend seems to halt between the two opinions. It must be one or either. Either the individual can own the gifts of nature, or he cannot. If he can, then we have only to discover the system under which all individuals can most rightly--without force and without fraud--own these gifts (which is, as we contend, the system of universal free trade); or the individual cannot own the gifts of nature, and then we ought to be Socialists.

    I am sure my friend wishes to be consistent. He must remember that everything is in part a gift of nature. If his proposition is true about gifts of nature, why should one gift of nature belong to everybody. and another gift belong to the individual? The soil belongs to everybody, says my friend, because it is the gift of nature. But so also the apple tree at the bottom of my garden is in part (the largest part) a gift of nature. "Oh, but you have mixed your labour with it" he may reply. True. But then, as he has just shewn us very clearly mixing what is your own with what is not, you cannot enlarge your rights. The apple tree then clearly cannot be wholly mine--being in part a gift of nature; and if I wholly appropriate it without allowing any passers-by to pluck two-thirds of its fruits, I am nothing but a robber stealing from the public. So it is with every single thing you can name. If we cannot rightly appropriate gifts of nature, my friend is a robber as regard the coat he wears, the the loaf he eats. At every moment of his life he is defrauding the public. And here I should ask all readers to consider the awful, indescribable complications arising out of my friend's dogma. Every article grown in every part of the world ought to be divided in parts between the grower and the rest of the world.

    "Oh!" probably exclaims my friend, "we put a tax upon the land and that makes it all right; that is to cover everybody's share in the gifts of nature." Yes but unfortunately it doesn't. It breaks down, as all these artificial arrangements break down, that are employed to give practical effect to an untrue dogma. You tax land at say $1 an acre. One man grows an oak tree or a furze bush on it; and another man gets a present (in part) from nature of $200 worth of strawberries. But you don't propose to tax--you know very well you dare not do it--in proportion to nature's gifts. You dare not really tax a man for the better use he makes of land, and for nature's share in all that she gives him. If you did, you would stop production and make a revolution. What then is the moral worth of a theory that you cannot honestly and straightforwardly carry out?

    ******************

    R.W.--"2. Though perfect realisation of the principle of equality may be unattainable, there must be some practicable arrangement more nearly conformable to it than any other, and it is the duty of every one who proposes to meddle with the soil to discover that best arrangement if he can, to recommend it to his fellowmen and to do his best to arrive at a common understanding with them on the subject."

    Auberon Herbert: That will hardly do. My friend lays down a principle, which he sees it is impossible to apply--a principle, which cannot be put into any practical form that does not violate the principle itself-- and then he calmly suggest that we should all go fishing for some arrangement that will have some sort of relationship to the principle. No. If a principle is discovered to be practically impossible, the true moral is to reconsider your principle. There are no real chasms existing between what is morally true and what is possible in practice.

    *********************

    R.W.--"3. In determining the arrangement which ought to be made, the guiding maxim should be, not the identity of user but equality of benefit, and the greatest total benefit consistent with equality."

    Auberon Herbert: Dogma begets dogma. My friend will find that dogmas are a most prolific race. On what grounds does he justify his new dogma? If a thing really belongs to everybody, the use of it is everybody's right, not some suppositious advantage, which is put in its place. If nature's gifts belong in part (labour etc. deducted) to everybody, then everybody ought to be free to pluck say two thirds of the apples on my tree; but my friend is afraid of the natural and direct consequences that result from his first dogma, so he is trying to find a way of escape by placing a second dogma by the side of his first dogma. His first dogma results in such hopelessly unpractical consequences that he is obliged to invent a new dogma--which amounts to this, that instead of giving 'everybody' what they have a right to claim, we are to give them something, which is quite different, and which they may or may not want to have. My friend does not dare to give 'everybody' two thirds of my apples but he will give them instead a new policeman, or a new inspector, or a bath-house, or a library--in short anything but the one thing which he declares they have a right to possess.
    It's really kind of devastating.

    So who was Auberon Herbert? Just a bit:

    ...He was an ardent but independent supporter of Herbert Spencer. His creed developed a variant of Spencerian individualism which he described as 'voluntaryism'....

    ...Government, he argued, should never initiate force but be "strictly limited to its legitimate duties in defense of self-ownership and individual rights," and to be consistent in not initiating force they should maintain themselves only through "voluntary taxation."...

    ...In an announcement of Herbert's death, Benjamin Tucker said, "Auberon Herbert is dead. He was a true anarchist in everything but name. How much better (and how much rarer) to be an anarchist in everything but name than to be an anarchist in name only!"[7] Tucker praised Herbert's work as "a magnificent assault on the majority idea, a searching exposure of the inherent evil of State systems, and a glorious assertion of the inestimable benefits of voluntary action and free competition..." while admonishing him for his support of profit in trade (but believes, unlike Herbert himself, that Herbert's system would result in an economy without profit)....
    Herbert Spencer is the author of, among other books, The Man Versus The State, a wonderful chronicle of how classical liberalism was turned into the modern democratic state we now have.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    I hate to be a ball buster on this one, but Fee.org is cherry picking a bit instead of looking at general themes. It is also described from the outsider's (white) perspective. They noted that families worked plots of land around river-based tribes (as I've said) and that those tribes respected a family's "area". Land ownership was based on you using it, working it, and not (in North America) a plantation style of agricultural system or where you can "sell" your plot. Families worked their land. Slaves taken from raids may work with the family but they had a chance to become a member of the tribe at a future date and do the same. If you stopped using it, someone else could take it.

    Aside from that, no one has said you don't have the right to the fruit of your labor. This is a discussion of land ownership, not private property that you created or labored over (hunted a buffalo).

    I've never denied that they traded buffalo skins or horses. A native was "rich" in many tribes if he owned multiple ponies.

    Repeatedly, I have said that you have a right to your labor and private property created by that labor.


    Ad hom, I'm surprised. But then you repeat what the Fee and other sources I presented said: "Land ownership was based on you using it, working it.... If you stopped using it, someone else could take it."


    Repeatedly, I have said that you have a right to your labor and private property created by that labor.
    Your point #1 said "exclusive" "right to your labor and private property created by that labor." Which would be inconsistent with taking a part in rent.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    I'm not seeing the disconnect. I've said we have the right to use land, but not to own it. I said that the natives did not believe in land ownership. Georgism is about using land as opposed to owning it.

    I have no idea at this point what's happening in this conversation because you're agreeing with me and arguing with me at the same time.

    Also, I own books on Natives, so I'm trying to recreate what I have in book format using this retarded Internet where I have to pay to use excerpts, it seems.

    I shall have to use links ((sigh))


    I gave tours there at Jamestown and read up on the Virginia natives extensively at William and Mary. The Natives were a loose confederacy but lived communally in regards to many things (sharing of chores). Some families had their own huts but many lived together in long houses and shared communal gardens, where they worked, ate, and lived. Some had gardens of their own, but in general according to Smith and others they worked together according to gender. They still had families that they provided for, but they worked in groups to provide for them.














    ^^Recreation of the long houses. They were divided up into communal for teen males, teen females, and married people with children. The Powatan, Pamunkey, Shawnee, Mataponi, and the Chickahominy all had areas they lived in but they did not own that territory. Individual families could work land, but they did not own it. Once they stopped "working" it could be absorbed by someone else. This is geoist or georgian in spirit. You work and produce upon the land, you don't own land.



    Land was not wasted and should not be wasted



    Land not privately owned and it wasn't even a concept for them.



    Again, the ability to work land as opposed to own land seemed to work for these people long, long before we came.

    http://www.smithtrail.net/captain-jo...iths-journals/
    http://www.bartleby.com/163/101.html
    http://www.virginiaplaces.org/native...eoindians.html
    http://www.nottowayindians.org/petitioncoverletter.html
    http://www.chesapeakebay.net/discove...ry/archaeology
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_...es_in_Virginia



    I've said we have the right to use land, but not to own it.
    As have I. It's all I've ever argued for days on end now, right to use, not to own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    I suppose I'm cherry picking too.

    To a large a extent, I think that's a problem with ethnology in general. Europeans have shown a curiosity about other cultures and societies that is, IMO, quite unique. We often have to rely on a (white) outsiders perspective.
    That, btw, is a major theme of Clastres' Society Against the State and Scott's The Art of Not Being Governed, that ethnology tends to be a story told be statists who look on societies without states as lacking something when in fact they resist the state.

    OK, well, that wasn't the same as your point, but along the same lines. --And, yes, most of the records we have of Indians were told by white Europeans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Did you read Bill's book @Chris?
    Bill's book?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Not new to Georgism. And determined, collected and redistributed by the state.

    IOW, again, the state, an artificial order.
    But we're speaking of stateless in the future just like anarcho-capitalism is speculated about. Currently we live in a state and all the corruption therein. We have to get to a stateless system somehow and in the process create something sustainable that people will adapt to and be able to live with.
    And if we should die tonight
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    But we're speaking of stateless in the future just like anarcho-capitalism is speculated about. Currently we live in a state and all the corruption therein. We have to get to a stateless system somehow and in the process create something sustainable that people will adapt to and be able to live with.
    Right, so I thought, but Georgism leads to statism for determining, collecting and redistributing rent and doing so coercively since it comes out of what is exclusively mine requires the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Right, so I thought, but Georgism leads to statism for determining, collecting and redistributing rent and doing so coercively since it comes out of what is exclusively mine requires the state.
    How is it coercive? You don't have to work land, and some will choose not to. Is it coercive for you to demand that an employer pays you for your labor? Is it coercive today that the person who "owned" the property before you asks that you pay for it?

    We don't and cannot own land. There is a finite amount for use of all the people and animals on the planet. To take and use exclusively without sharing is a form of theft since its there for all, you're simply saying that you will pay a rental fee (instead of buying outright) for that land.

    Anyway, again...I'm trying to present basic concepts and there are other things to talk about--thanks for the discussion and I'll pop on from time to time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyosha View Post
    How is it coercive? You don't have to work land, and some will choose not to. Is it coercive for you to demand that an employer pays you for your labor? Is it coercive today that the person who "owned" the property before you asks that you pay for it?

    We don't and cannot own land. There is a finite amount for use of all the people and animals on the planet. To take and use exclusively without sharing is a form of theft since its there for all, you're simply saying that you will pay a rental fee (instead of buying outright) for that land.

    Anyway, again...I'm trying to present basic concepts and there are other things to talk about--thanks for the discussion and I'll pop on from time to time.

    But you will take rent from what is exclusively mine without my agreement.

    And mixing the land with my labor cannot be theft since no one owns it. When animals and insects burrow into the ground to build nests and defend their territory against intruders, when they consume the natural produce of the earth, are they thieving from other animals and insects? Do birds pay rent to other birds for use of the air to fly?


    Here's how I see Georgism working, thanks largely to the Herbert views.

    A person could by some land and then invite others to live on it, work on it, share it in agreement to pay some rent that might go to pay for the land, property taxes on the land, upkeep and improvements on the land, providing defense of it, participating in building common buildings, roads, parks, whathaveyou, iow, the rent could be bartered in various ways depending on what each person could do. If not a person, a group of people agreeing on the same and buying the land. Wikipedia earlier provided examples of that, small communities still in existence.

    But I can't see how it would scale up to a broader scale without creating a state to manage the rent.

    And note the land would be purchased and rent (property taxes) paid into the larger system it would be a part of.
    Last edited by Chris; 01-29-2015 at 09:46 AM.

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