Yo Chris - Free Markets

[Captain Obvious]

A few disconnects.

One, a theory is a description of what is, sometimes to the effect of predicting what might work better. It is not a guess, it is not some textbook thing.

Two, yes, one point is that "markets are "free" if governmental influence is eliminated" but also that such a system is better than a government designed, managed, regulated economy. The freer the better.

Three, What are "the restrictions put on trade by empowered participants in the market"? Your first example, China, is of state capitalism, a government designed, managed, regulated economy. That's not free. Your second example is incomplete in that you do not describe how Walmart "forces" competition out and then "chooses" for consumers what it will sell. I understand people, from populist perspectives, like to frame things in those militaristic, statist terms. But even if it exists your metaphors belie the fact that such a world, if it exists, is not the free market. We've already discussed single carrier markets, no one is preventing other carriers from moving in, they just don't see a market in doing so.

It sounds like you want to discuss monopoly again. Monopoly is a situation where there is no competition, production is restricted and prices raised. Walmart and this cable company achive market through competition, expand production, and lower prices.

Monopoly, oligopoly, barriers, etc., it's not that I want to discuss them, only to the extent that I don't consider those conditions "free market" conditions.

[Chris]

Pointless trying to call Chris on anything. He holds strong in everything he believes. Not always a bad thing but when he is not correct it becomes a real character flaw. Is he correct here? No matter.

The best you can hope to do is make a case as good or better than his so that people do not get confused.

Archer, do you ever argue the message instead of the messenger? How boring.

[Chris]

Monopoly, oligopoly, barriers, etc., it's not that I want to discuss them, only to the extent that I don't consider those conditions "free market" conditions.

They're not. But it is my contention they are brought about not by the free market but designed, managed and regulated markets. Your China case a perfect example. Inasmuch as Walmart, AT&T and others take advantage of government subsidies, tak breaks, and other political favors, they are operating outside the free market. A free market position advocates ending that corrupt collusion of government and business.

[Polecat]

There are 6 neanderthals sitting around a fire. They have trapped and killed a boar and it is roasting to perfection on the fire. For 5 of them the situation looks entirely like a reward for their cooperative efforts. To 1 of them this looks like a golden opportunity to cheat the others out of their share.

[Archer0915]

Archer, do you ever argue the message instead of the messenger? How boring.

Yup, I have and I do. Sadly it just dose not get through at times. I can not help it if you are so sensitive that you consider it a personal attack and call ad hominem every time you get your ass schooled.

This is not a personal attack it is an observation.

[Captain Obvious]

They're not. But it is my contention they are brought about not by the free market but designed, managed and regulated markets. Your China case a perfect example. Inasmuch as Walmart, AT&T and others take advantage of government subsidies, tak breaks, and other political favors, they are operating outside the free market. A free market position advocates ending that corrupt collusion of government and business.

You totally misrepresented my China analogy actually, I at no point referred to trade with China.

When Walmart in predatory fashion eliminates it's competitors from town then basically names their own price and selection, gubmint has nothing to do with it, or little.

[Captain Obvious]

When Microsoft strong-arms computer retailers into carrying Microsoft products exclusively, cornering a virtual monopolistic share of the market, what gubmint influence is helping or impacting them?

[Chris]

There are 6 neanderthals sitting around a fire. They have trapped and killed a boar and it is roasting to perfection on the fire. For 5 of them the situation looks entirely like a reward for their cooperative efforts. To 1 of them this looks like a golden opportunity to cheat the others out of their share.

The sixth sounds like the government. It cheats everyone then says if one of you bribes me, I'll give you the favor of eating.

[Archer0915]

It boils down to cheap Americans and greed from the bottom.

Keeping up with the Joneses is putting many people behind the Chongs.

[Chris]

Yup, I have and I do. Sadly it just dose not get through at times. I can not help it if you are so sensitive that you consider it a personal attack and call ad hominem every time you get your ass schooled.

This is not a personal attack it is an observation.

You misunderstand my pointing out your logical fallacy as sensitivity? Try and be rational for a bit here.