Communism

[Chris]

Communism keeps coming up lately. There's commie Pope and commie Obama. There's commie kilgram, but he's not a Marxist communist.

So what is communism. Are there different kinds, I mean, authoritarian vs libertarian communism? How does communism solve problems, how does it decide to allocate resources in the productions of goods and services? How does it solve the free rider problem, the tragedy of the commons. Let's try and have a discussion on it. And, please, let's not talk about what it's not. Let's talk about what it is.

[Mister D]

I'm not going to get into the intellectual and theoretical differences because what matters, IMO, are the practical, real world results of communist theory. IOW, it's a question of how such theories manifested themselves in historically. There is only one kind of communism and that is the totalitarian, inhuman kind.

[Chris]

From what I know of communism I think authoritarianism of some sort is inevitable. Some, like Marx, grow impatient with the masses revolting for their ideology. Some, like Kropotkin, are more patient but still don't seem to trust the people and so insist the future must be communist. Still others are libertarian an seek to educate. --That, at least, is how Max Nettlau in A Short History of Anarchism sees it.

I think it inevitable economically. Unless you falsely assume a post scarcity society, you need some mechanism to allocate resources for production. Even if you avoid central planning, and try democracy instead, it's still authoritarian.

[SouthernBelle82]

Lmao Obama is a Commie like I am a Christian (hint I'm not one).

When you say communism what do you mean? Marxism? Marxist-Leninism? Stalinism? Maoism? Trotsky's? Juche?

[Chris]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism divides communism into historical, Marxist and non-Marxist. Let me paraphrase with a few quotes -- iow, this is all Wiki, not me.

Historical

Historical communism goes way back in origins. But as an ideology can be traced to More's Utopia, Rousseau, Robert Owen, Charles Fourier. Marx called these reformists "utopian socialists" to contrast with his "scientific socialism". Modern communism is starts perhaps in the 1900s and is embodied in the Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea.

Marxist

"Marxism, first developed by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, has been the foremost ideology of the communist movement. Marxism considers itself to be the embodiment of scientific socialism; rather than model an "ideal society" based on intellectuals' design, it is a non-idealist attempt at the understanding of society and history, through an analysis based in real life. Marxism does not see communism as a "state of affairs" to be established, but rather as the expression of a real movement, with parameters which are derived completely from real life and not based on any intelligent design.[27] Marxism, therefore, does no blueprinting of a communist society; it only makes an analysis which concludes what will trigger its implementation, and discovers its fundamental characteristics based on the derivation of real life conditions.

...An important concept in Marxism is socialization vs. nationalization. Nationalization is merely state ownership of property, whereas socialization is actual control and management of property by society. Marxism considers socialization its goal, and considers nationalization a tactical issue, with state ownership still being in the realm of the capitalist mode of production."

Non-Marxist

"Anarchist communism (also known as libertarian communism) is a theory of anarchism which advocates the abolition of the state, private property, and capitalism in favor of common ownership of the means of production,[49][50] direct democracy and a horizontal network of voluntary associations and workers' councils with production and consumption based on the guiding principle: "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need".[51][52]

"Anarcho-communism differs from Marxism rejecting its view about the need for a State Socialism phase before building communism. The main anarcho-communist theorist Peter Kropotkin argued "that a revolutionary society should "transform itself immediately into a communist society,", that is, should go immediately into what Marx had regarded as the "more advanced," completed, phase of communism."[53] In this way it tries to avoid the reappearance of "class divisions and the need for a state to oversee everything"."

Examples include " the anarchist territories during the Spanish Revolution and the Free Territory during the Russian Revolution...."

Criticism

"Some people have criticized socialism and by extension communism, stating that the two systems would distort or remove price signals,[60][61] slow or stagnate technological advance,[62] reduce incentives,[63][64][65] and reduce prosperity,[66][67] as well as on the grounds of its feasibility[60][61][62] and its social and political effects.[68][69][70][71][72]" (The footnotes go to Mises, Hayek, Friedman, Hoppe, among others).

[Chris]

Lmao Obama is a Commie like I am a Christian (hint I'm not one).

When you say communism what do you mean? Marxism? Marxist-Leninism? Stalinism? Maoism? Trotsky's? Juche?

Well, yea, those name-callings of Pope and President are childish and silly.

What do I mean? I mean to find out.

[IMPress Polly]

Communism is a very broad term that encompasses lots of different types of people: Marxists obviously, but also many (if not most) anarchists and many futurists (like yours truly) as well.

I don't know much about the various schools of anarchist communism, admittedly. The only big-name anarchist communists I'm familiar with the material of include Alexander Berkman and Noam Chomsky. I think the relatively popular '90s rap-rock band Rage Against the Machine was also in the general anarcho-communist train of thought kinda sorta, though none too intellectually particular about it.

As an ex-Marxist, I'm intimately familiar with many varieties of Marxism, though it can be observed that the schools of Marxism all fall into one of four broad super-schools, which include, in order of invention, orthodox Marxism, Leninist Marxism, critical theory, and analytical Marxism. Most Marxists are very socially liberal, to answer one question from the OP. The exceptions to that rule most often come out of the orthodox and Leninist traditions, though there are many hardcore liberals among their ranks as well.

There are also futurist communists (like me). The most prominent futurist communist organization out there is Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist Movement, which has something like 500,000 members worldwide. As for me, I kind of fuse some elements of Marxist theories on historical progress in with Peter Joseph's thinking on mechanization having the potential to create a jobless, moneyless, stateless, communist future. Both the average Marxist and the Peter Joseph crowd broadly consider themselves scientific socialists (not humanist ones) and so do I.

There are also primitivist communists who are the opposite of the futurist ones. They aspire to return humanity to a tribal existence. They're not very popular.

As to what communism is in the abstract, it's a situation wherein all property is owned in common.

[Boris The Animal]

Any way you slice it, Communism strips people of their individual liberty and individual rights. So it has always been an abject failure.

[Chris]

Communism is a very broad term that encompasses lots of different types of people: Marxists obviously, but also many (if not most) anarchists and many futurists (like yours truly) as well.

I don't know much about the various schools of anarchist communism, admittedly. The only big-name anarchist communists I'm familiar with the material of include Alexander Berkman and Noam Chomsky. I think the relatively popular '90s rap-rock band Rage Against the Machine was also in the general anarcho-communist train of thought kinda sorta, though none too intellectually particular about it.

As an ex-Marxist, I'm intimately familiar with many varieties of Marxism, though it can be observed that the schools of Marxism all fall into one of four broad super-schools, which include, in order of invention, orthodox Marxism, Leninist Marxism, critical theory, and analytical Marxism. Most Marxists are very socially liberal, to answer one question from the OP. The exceptions to that rule most often come out of the orthodox and Leninist traditions, though there are many hardcore liberals among their ranks as well.

There are also futurist communists (like me). The most prominent futurist communist organization out there is Peter Joseph's Zeitgeist Movement, which has something like 500,000 members worldwide. As for me, I kind of fuse some elements of Marxist theories on historical progress in with Peter Joseph's thinking on mechanization having the potential to create a jobless, moneyless, stateless, communist future. Both the average Marxist and the Peter Joseph crowd broadly consider themselves scientific socialists (not humanist ones) and so do I.

There are also primitivist communists who are the opposite of the futurist ones. They aspire to return humanity to a tribal existence. They're not very popular.

As to what communism is in the abstract, it's a situation wherein all property is owned in common.

Thank you for the positive contribution, positive especially in the sense of saying what communism is.

Some questions.

Given that the ultimate goal of Marxist communism is socialization rather than nationalization of the means of production, is not Marx then an anarchist? True, for him the transition to communism was stateful but the goal was stateless. And that too seems to be the only difference between Marxist and non-Marxist communists like Kropotkin who sought immediate transformation to a communist society.

But isn't it antithetical to anarchy to dictate the future? I mean, where is the liberty in that for society to choose its own path(s) to the future?

[Chris]

Any way you slice it, Communism strips people of their individual liberty and individual rights. So it has always been an abject failure.

I would say individual liberty is, for communists, found in the collective. Which seems very contradictory.