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Thread: Why The War on Drugs Is a Huge Failure

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hal Jordan View Post
    But alcohol is legal...
    It's not a question of legality. I would certainly include alcoholism in "drug addiction". I really don't understand the relevance of Pol's question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    It's not a question of legality. I would certainly include alcoholism in "drug addiction". I really don't understand the relevance of Pol's question.
    Oh, I would definitely agree. I was mocking the "it's different because it's legal" argument that always comes up. It's really a senseless argument.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    First of all, the idea that religion is a form of a drug is a rather bizarre statement. Are your wife, family and friends a form of drug too? A beautiful sunset? A good book? Is anything that gives one confidence, hope and comfort a drug? In case you'll be compelled to cite Karl Marx "opiate of the people" is a metaphor.
    It's an accurate metaphor, as it successfully compares religion to drug use as a way of soothing the downtrodden. To see an even more accurate comparison, look at the religion of the whirling dervishes of Turkey. Their religion proscribes extensive twirling, which affects the brain. Meditation...prayer...all similar.

    The us of psychoactive drugs is mediated through culture and society. It's related to wider social patterns. For example, the rise of drunkenness among the poor and working classes of industrial England was the result of an economic and social patterns (e.g. the breakdown of organic society and the concomitant loss of social networks and support structures).
    That's another area where the religion plays a greater role -- and for just the same reason. While there is drug use among the wealthy, those truly devastated by it are the poor and under-educated. I'm not meaning to get off on a religious bent, I'm just drawing parallels.

    Men once knew their place and were secure in it. Now they weren't. They were forced to leave home and make a living in a grimy urban slum where, while they could actually make more money than before, they developed a habit of drinking it in addition to developing a host of other vices. What's going on today? Why do so many human beings need to escape reality? Mind you, I'm not coy about my own drug use. I'm in the same boat and that's what prompted my question in the first place.
    There is some truth to that - but "knowing one's place" is not the same as being in the right place.

    It's as simple as Wolf said initially. They seek soothing. They have for millenia and they will likely always do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    It's an accurate metaphor, as it successfully compares religion to drug use as a way of soothing the downtrodden. To see an even more accurate comparison, look at the religion of the whirling dervishes of Turkey. Their religion proscribes extensive twirling, which affects the brain. Meditation...prayer...all similar.



    That's another area where the religion plays a greater role -- and for just the same reason. While there is drug use among the wealthy, those truly devastated by it are the poor and under-educated. I'm not meaning to get off on a religious bent, I'm just drawing parallels.



    There is some truth to that - but "knowing one's place" is not the same as being in the right place.

    It's as simple as Wolf said initially. They seek soothing. They have for millenia and they will likely always do so.
    Whether or not it's an accurate metaphor is immaterial. It's still a metaphor and unrelated to our topic which is the use, or more precisely the abuse, of psychoactive chemicals. Religion, community, love, friendship and the myriad of beliefs, practices and experiences that give us hope and comfort in life are not drugs.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here with regard to religion? That it's more common among the poor or under-educated? If that's true at all it applies only to particular societies. In fact, it applies only to modern western societies but that's all off topic. Anyway, I think we all know that the abuse of drugs and alcohol have ruined the lives of both the poor and the wealthy. The wealthy have only a larger safety net in material terms but no advantage in terms of their family life, dignity, happiness and relationships.

    The right place then, for example, is alcoholism? Estrangement from family? What I meant by knowing one's place is that one understood himself in a more social sense than we do today. That is, one's social relationships defined who one was to a greater extent than today. One always had a community to fall back on. A community that he was an organic part of.

    Soothing from what? That's my question. In a time of unprecedented material prosperity and standard of living why is drug abuse so prevalent? What cultural or social patterns are related to this phenomenon? Personally, I think it is connected to the increasingly isolated lives we lead in a increasingly egotistic culture. Every little hurt to our ego and every unsatisfied desire becomes an unbearable burden and that's not so much a criticism as an observation. After all, what else do we have but our own little egos?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Religion, community, love, friendship and the myriad of beliefs, practices and experiences that give us hope and comfort in life are not drugs.
    You're introducing outside elements in an attempt to remove religion from the "drug" category. I hold that religion, because it can alter conscious behavior AND can be addicting (look at the fundies and other extremists), that it is a TYPE of drug. But, I was making an off-the-cuff association and I'm not interested in turning the thread to a separate topic. You disagree. I'm fine with that.

    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here with regard to religion? That it's more common among the poor or under-educated? If that's true at all it applies only to particular societies. In fact, it applies only to modern western societies but that's all off topic.
    Yes, it is off-topic, but it is also accurate. The under-educated tend to be more superstitious. They also tend to be poorer, which increases the odds that they will follow a religion that offers them an unearthly reward. Not just in western societies -- in all societies.

    Anyway, I think we all know that the abuse of drugs and alcohol have ruined the lives of both the poor and the wealthy. The wealthy have only a larger safety net in material terms but no advantage in terms of their family life, dignity, happiness and relationships.
    Agreed. Addiction knows no societal bounds. It's more prevalent among the poor, and as I demonstrated through the scripture I posted, it has been that way for millenia. I agree with much of what you say, my main area of disagreement is in the idea that the tendency to self-medicate or self-intoxicate is relatively new. It's not. It's very old and it's human nature, especially among society's downtrodden.

    The right place then, for example, is alcoholism? Estrangement from family? What I meant by knowing one's place is that one understood himself in a more social sense than we do today. That is, one's social relationships defined who one was to a greater extent than today. One always had a community to fall back on. A community that he was an organic part of.
    I understand the point you're making but it applies only to what I would call a "honeymoon" period in the US that existed from the Great Depression until the mid-sixties. Before and after that -- it only existed temporarily in various societies throughout history. It's not the rule, as you suggest, it's the exception. And even during that era, the "someone to fall back on" didn't exist for everyone. But, it did exist (in the US and a few European countries) to a greater extent than it does today. That much is sure.

    Soothing from what? That's my question. In a time of unprecedented material prosperity and standard of living why is drug abuse so prevalent? What cultural or social patterns are related to this phenomenon? Personally, I think it is connected to the increasingly isolated lives we lead in a increasingly egotistic culture. Every little hurt to our ego and every unsatisfied desire becomes an unbearable burden and that's not so much a criticism as an observation. After all, what else do we have but our own little egos?
    Whether we live in a materialistic society or not, as humans, we have thoughts of what our lives should be like and when we fall short, we become depressed. That's where the soothing aspect of drugs or anything else that soothes (like religion) comes into play. Some folks might first take pain-killing drugs for true medical pain, and then become addicted. The only difference between today's society and past societies is that our knowledge has given us a wider range of drugs. Human nature hasn't changed -- just the discovery of new drugs.

    But, look back at the Prohibition era. Prohibition was enacted in response to the flapper era of free sex and wide-ranging drunkenness. It didn't work, obviously, but it was an attempt to put a lid on human nature.

    I think you're focusing only on a small subsection of the past. Wine has been around (as have opiates) for a long time and has always been abused. The same human frailty we see today has always been with us. Sometimes, governments are able to control mind-altering substances -- sometimes they aren't. I don't think humans are any weaker, emotionally, than they've ever been.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    You're introducing outside elements in an attempt to remove religion from the "drug" category. I hold that religion, because it can alter conscious behavior AND can be addicting (look at the fundies and other extremists), that it is a TYPE of drug. But, I was making an off-the-cuff association and I'm not interested in turning the thread to a separate topic. You disagree. I'm fine with that.



    Yes, it is off-topic, but it is also accurate. The under-educated tend to be more superstitious. They also tend to be poorer, which increases the odds that they will follow a religion that offers them an unearthly reward. Not just in western societies -- in all societies.



    Agreed. Addiction knows no societal bounds. It's more prevalent among the poor, and as I demonstrated through the scripture I posted, it has been that way for millenia. I agree with much of what you say, my main area of disagreement is in the idea that the tendency to self-medicate or self-intoxicate is relatively new. It's not. It's very old and it's human nature, especially among society's downtrodden.



    I understand the point you're making but it applies only to what I would call a "honeymoon" period in the US that existed from the Great Depression until the mid-sixties. Before and after that -- it only existed temporarily in various societies throughout history. It's not the rule, as you suggest, it's the exception. And even during that era, the "someone to fall back on" didn't exist for everyone. But, it did exist (in the US and a few European countries) to a greater extent than it does today. That much is sure.



    Whether we live in a materialistic society or not, as humans, we have thoughts of what our lives should be like and when we fall short, we become depressed. That's where the soothing aspect of drugs or anything else that soothes (like religion) comes into play. Some folks might first take pain-killing drugs for true medical pain, and then become addicted. The only difference between today's society and past societies is that our knowledge has given us a wider range of drugs. Human nature hasn't changed -- just the discovery of new drugs.

    But, look back at the Prohibition era. Prohibition was enacted in response to the flapper era of free sex and wide-ranging drunkenness. It didn't work, obviously, but it was an attempt to put a lid on human nature.

    I think you're focusing only on a small subsection of the past. Wine has been around (as have opiates) for a long time and has always been abused. The same human frailty we see today has always been with us. Sometimes, governments are able to control mind-altering substances -- sometimes they aren't. I don't think humans are any weaker, emotionally, than they've ever been.
    No, you're just taking a metaphor literally. If you want to insist that religion is quite literally a drug then you will have to say the same about anything (or anyone!) that gives comfort or is in any way "addictive" although, to be honest, I don't see how religion is "addictive. In any case, this is a truly ridiculous tangent. Look, I know you and a handful of others here have this weird animus toward religion. I get it. Quite frankly, I don't find these gripes to be intelligent or interesting but it's OK. We could discuss them some time but it's simply not appropriate here. The topic is the use and abuse of psychoactive chemicals. Religion, your wife and a sunset are not psychoactive chemicals. Please focus.

    Indeed, addiction knows no bounds. We agree there but I have to admit I have no idea what you're talking about when you mention Scripture.

    Proverbs 31:6-7King James Version (KJV)

    6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
    7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
    A proverb from the bible proves drug addiction was more common among the poor in the ancient world? Surely you can't be serious? First of all, the poor would, generally speaking, have far less access to wine and other intoxicants. Secondly, this passage in the bible is not about "self-medicating". It's about actual medicine. Alcohol was used to treat the sufferers of a variety of ailments in the ancient world.

    No, a more holistic approach to society is the historical norm and remains the norm today. Modern (i.e. western society) is peculiar with respect to its radical individualism, materialism and atomization.

    It's not a question of whether or not we live in a materialistic society. We obviously do. That's one among many cultural and sociological differences between past societies and our own. You keep referencing "human nature" as the cause of drug abuse, addiction and their concomitant social ills. Sorry, I'm not buying it. Chemical dependence is not "human nature". Nor is any other pathology. It's abnormal by definition. If we found a cancer cluster in your neighborhood you'd want to know more about its causes. You wouldn't chalk it up to "human nature". It amazes me how fiercely some folks resist the obvious. Lastly, this isn't about human beings being any weaker than they were in the past. If 4 men carried a burden but then one was left to carry it on his own would he be weaker than he was before? No. He'd be the same man in a different situation.
    Last edited by Mister D; 03-07-2016 at 12:18 PM.
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    Texas state trooper Finds 1,700 Pounds of Pot in Pickup valued at about $600,000...

    Trooper Finds 1,700 Pounds of Pot in Pickup
    August 12, 2016 - The Texas Department of Public Safety estimates the drugs' value at about $600,000.
    State troopers found over 1,700 pounds of marijuana last weekend when they stopped a pickup for a traffic violation near Marfa. A trooper pulled over the 2007 GMC pickup around 7:30 p.m. Sunday while it was traveling north on State Highway 17.


    The Texas Department of Public Safety estimates the drugs' value at about $600,000.

    While inspecting the car, the trooper found 736 bundles of marijuana inside the cab and bed of the truck. The Department of Public Safety estimates the drugs' value at about $600,000, according to a post on its Facebook page.

    Police arrested the driver, Jesus Galvan Fernandez, 26, from Ojinaga, Mexico, and charged him with possession of marijuana over 50 pounds but less than 2,000 pounds, which is a second-degree felony. Fernandez was booked into the Presidio County Jail.

    http://www.officer.com/news/12244135...weed-in-pickup

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    Hooray for the Coast Guard!...

    US Coast Guard Unloads Major Drug Haul in Puerto Rico
    Feb 28, 2017 — Authorities have made the largest maritime seizure of cocaine in the Atlantic region since 1999 from a boat off South America's northeastern coast, the U.S. Coast Guard said Monday.
    About 4.2 tons of cocaine, with an estimated street value of $125 million, was confiscated from a fishing boat in international waters off Suriname, said Ricardo Castrodad, a spokesman for the U.S. Coast Guard in San Juan.


    Bales of cocaine are shown on the deck of the Coast Guard Cutter Vigorous

    The vessel was stopped and searched by authorities Feb. 16 during a joint patrol by the crews of the U.S. Coast Guard cutter Joseph Napier and the coast guard of Trinidad and Tobago, Castrodad said.

    The crew of the Napier, which is based in Port Canaveral, Florida, towed the 70-foot (21-meter) fishing vessel, the Lady Michelle, to St. Vincent and four men on board from Guyana were taken to the U.S. Virgin Islands to face possible criminal charges. The Coast Guard took the cocaine to Puerto Rico and turned it over to the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration.

    http://www.military.com/daily-news/2...erto-rico.html

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    Hispexican drug ring busted in California...

    55 charged in meth, heroin, firearm crackdown in California
    March 2, 2017 -- The U.S. Department of Justice charged 55 people with crimes ranging money laundering to trafficking heroin, methamphetamine and firearms in California.
    The people charged, including known drug dealers and gang members, are accused of supplying a "substantial portion" of the heroin and methamphetamine distributed in North County, Calif., the Justice Department said. Forty-six of the 55 charged are in either federal or state custody. Authorities arrested 14 on Wednesday, while the rest were arrested either earlier in the week or were already in custody. Officials are still searching for seven people who face charges, two of whom are in Mexico, including the alleged ringleader. Officials said the arrests on Wednesday amount to "one of the most significant crackdowns in recent memory." Charges range from drug distribution, firearms trafficking, robberies, vehicle thefts, burglaries and assaults.


    Fifty-five people have been charged with trafficking heroin, methamphetamine and firearms in North County, Calif., near San Diego, the U.S. Department of Justice announced on Wednesday. Seven people, including the alleged ringleader, are still on the loose.

    In the crackdown, authorities seized heroin, methamphetamine and 25 firearms, including handguns, revolvers and assault rifles, the Justice Department said. "Today we've taken out one of North County's largest heroin suppliers," Acting U.S. Attorney Alana Robinson said in a statement. "This crackdown is our most significant response to date to the heroin epidemic ravaging our communities. We anticipate seeing a huge impact now that these defendants are removed from our community, particularly in the North County cities of Oceanside, Vista, San Marcos and other areas plagued by gangs."

    The trafficking organization was allegedly led by Yadira "Pini" Villalvazo, a Mexico-based woman linked to Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzmán's Sinaloa Cartel who used dozens of street gang members to distribute heroin, the Justice Department said. "This drug trafficking organization supplied at least 25 percent of the heroin sold and consumed in North County and grossed tens of thousands of dollars in proceeds that were sent back to Mexico," the Justice Department added.

    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2017/...p&utm_medium=1

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    Big ol' cocaine haul in Peru...

    Peru seizes 1.5 tons of cocaine bearing Lionel Messi's likeness
    March 24, 2017 ) -- Police in Peru seized 3,000 pounds of cocaine bearing the name and likeness of Argentina soccer star Lionel Messi.
    "We impounded a ton and a half of cocaine in the port of Callao," Peruvian Police said in a statement.

    Police said the cocaine, bagged in 1,282 packages and bearing Messi's name and likeness, as well as the shield of the King of Spain, was en route to the United States and Belgium. Prosecutors specializing in drugs said the shipment of drugs discovered during the weekend was held in three containers belonging to the Valle de Oro Perú S.A.C. company. The drug seizure is valued to be worth $85 million, La Republica reported.


    The huge load of cocaine was contained in 1,282 packages and was on its way to the United States and Belgium, Peruvian Police said. An anti-drug official said the cocaine could belong to a group working for Mexican drug lord Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman's Sinaloa Cartel.

    An anti-drug official said the shipment could belong to a cell working for Mexican drug lord Joaquin "El Chapo" Guzman's Sinaloa Cartel. "As the hours go by, it will be possible to advance in the investigation, not only in the identification of the members of this network, but in the capture of the recipients," the official said. "There is no doubt that this is an international organization. And it is likely that the Mexican Sinaloa Cartel card will be behind this impounded shipment."

    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-Ne...&utm_medium=20

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