User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 19 of 19

Thread: JV team's failed attack

  1. #11
    Original Ranter
    Points: 858,899, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    496516
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    241,648
    Points
    858,899
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    153,205
    Thanked 147,526x in 94,387 Posts
    Mentioned
    2552 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
    Then put it into context for me. Please. US withdrawal.....as you won't disagree Peter...was opposed and cautioned against by your superiors. Military leadership. Civilian authority. And Uncle Ransom. We withdrew anyway to your "it's about time"(unless I'm out of context there as well). Should you wish to discuss why we were there in the first place or endless occupation, I'll take that on if you wish....I'm speaking to the 2011 December withdrawal. Was then rising violence in fact not our problem? Should we have intervened then, backed further the Iraqi military...or what....Peter. Return to 2012......make a serious response to that post of rising violence in Iraq, put it all in context.....what would the realism bible have you to do July of 2012?
    I have said many times that I would have left a US base in Iraq. In fact I never would have occupied Iraq in the fist place and attempted to give them Jeffersonian democracy. I would have used three bases in the country as platforms to go after terrorists in the Middle East and support the fight in Afghanistan.

    How Iraqis governed Iraq was not and is not our concern.

    I certainly would not have screwed up Libya and Syria.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  2. #12
    Points: 141,269, Level: 90
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 1,781
    Overall activity: 33.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ransom's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    48002
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    44,110
    Points
    141,269
    Level
    90
    Thanks Given
    10,124
    Thanked 15,009x in 10,721 Posts
    Mentioned
    494 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You would have left a US base capable of what exactly? What size force would occupy this base?

    I'm aware of your opinions in 2003. I'm aware of the immediate kneejerk to Jeffersonian Democracy as a distraction attempt. I'm aware of your opinions on governance and I disagree vehemently. For example, how Afghanistan was governed should have come to our national 'concern' a lot earlier than it did. For example, should you govern by allowing anti-western terror groups to organize and plot attacks against the United States...ala the Taliban....that needs to become a concern.....but that's all a distraction Peter.

    I'm not asking about 2003. 2007. Or 2001. I'm asking specifically about 2011. December of 2011. You're saying we should have remained in some force is what I'm reading there. As you know, we had ceased combat operations....had reduced forces to numerous outposts or bases. Allowed Iraqis to govern themselves rather than hand them the Jefferson for Dummies book. I want to know what you would have left in Iraq......a base strong enough to defend itself? A logistics outposts. Implanted into Iraqi forces. Today's support role that just cost Keating his life? Your floor.

  3. #13
    Original Ranter
    Points: 858,899, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    496516
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    241,648
    Points
    858,899
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    153,205
    Thanked 147,526x in 94,387 Posts
    Mentioned
    2552 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
    You would have left a US base capable of what exactly? What size force would occupy this base?

    I'm aware of your opinions in 2003. I'm aware of the immediate kneejerk to Jeffersonian Democracy as a distraction attempt. I'm aware of your opinions on governance and I disagree vehemently. For example, how Afghanistan was governed should have come to our national 'concern' a lot earlier than it did. For example, should you govern by allowing anti-western terror groups to organize and plot attacks against the United States...ala the Taliban....that needs to become a concern.....but that's all a distraction Peter.

    I'm not asking about 2003. 2007. Or 2001. I'm asking specifically about 2011. December of 2011. You're saying we should have remained in some force is what I'm reading there. As you know, we had ceased combat operations....had reduced forces to numerous outposts or bases. Allowed Iraqis to govern themselves rather than hand them the Jefferson for Dummies book. I want to know what you would have left in Iraq......a base strong enough to defend itself? A logistics outposts. Implanted into Iraqi forces. Today's support role that just cost Keating his life? Your floor.
    I don't think that you are aware of anything not in the Neocon playbook.

    The 2011 issue was about the status of forces agreement. The US has not had serious issues with those in the past. In that case, Obama told his negotiators to skip the negotiations. That is why there was no new SOFA and why US forces had to leave.

    What I would have done in that particular point in time is not very relevant, considering that we would not have been in that position had we acted in a more rational way so far as foreign policy goes.

    But if I had to be forced into that specific time and place, I would have negotiated a SOFA and I would have left US troops at 3 bases in Iraq. From those bases I would strike at terrorist targets at will. I would advice Iraq that our Jeffersonian Democracy fetish went away, and suggest they crack down on the population and control them.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  4. #14
    Points: 141,269, Level: 90
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 1,781
    Overall activity: 33.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ransom's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    48002
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    44,110
    Points
    141,269
    Level
    90
    Thanks Given
    10,124
    Thanked 15,009x in 10,721 Posts
    Mentioned
    494 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    I don't think that you are aware of anything not in the Neocon playbook.

    The 2011 issue was about the status of forces agreement. The US has not had serious issues with those in the past. In that case, Obama told his negotiators to skip the negotiations. That is why there was no new SOFA and why US forces had to leave.

    What I would have done in that particular point in time is not very relevant, considering that we would not have been in that position had we acted in a more rational way so far as foreign policy goes.

    But if I had to be forced into that specific time and place, I would have negotiated a SOFA and I would have left US troops at 3 bases in Iraq. From those bases I would strike at terrorist targets at will. I would advice Iraq that our Jeffersonian Democracy fetish went away, and suggest they crack down on the population and control them.
    I'll consider only your last paragraph there as it's what I asked you to address. I happen to agree we should have left a force in occupation in Iraq. And imagine had you said this in response rather than your now infamous NOPD post. It was all I ever took issue with Peter, you're looking at the reality there today and the fact that Obama is forced to return in some form....it's quite obvious you remaining on the NOPD caravan wasn't too bright.

    And I believe all we did was help structure Iraqi elections....that were successful by the way. Iraqis formed their own government and Republic, it included SHaria Law, it wasn't a Jeffersonian all men are created equal and endowed with unalienable rights...and an historian knows that too meaning you continue to bluster and distract. For this was you actually taking on an NOPD opinion back in 2012...now 4 yeas later, you believe we should have stayed. You must have then understood that rising violence in 2012 should have brought a response too...that the correct call was not NOPD.

    There are two words for that change of opinion Ladies and Gentlemen. Actually three. Uncle. Ransom. And reality.
    Last edited by Ransom; 05-08-2016 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #15
    Original Ranter
    Points: 858,899, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 91.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    496516
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    241,648
    Points
    858,899
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    153,205
    Thanked 147,526x in 94,387 Posts
    Mentioned
    2552 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
    I'll consider only your last paragraph there as it's what I asked you to address. I happen to agree we should have left a force in occupation in Iraq. And imagine had you said this in response rather than your now infamous NOPD post. It was all I ever took issue with Peter, you're looking at the reality there today and the fact that Obama is forced to return in some form....it's quite obvious you remaining on the NOPD caravan wasn't too bright.

    And I believe all we did was help structure Iraqi elections....that were successful by the way. Iraqis formed their own government and Republic, it included SHaria Law, it wasn't a Jeffersonian all men are created equal and endowed with unalienable rights...and an historian knows that too meaning you continue to bluster and distract. For this was you actually taking on an NOPD opinion back in 2012...now 4 yeas later, you believe we should have stayed. You must have then understood that rising violence in 2012 should have brought a response too...that the correct call was not NOPD.

    There are two words for that change of opinion Ladies and Gentlemen. Actually three. Uncle. Ransom. And reality.
    I was last there from June of 2007 through July 2008. I saw the elections and played a minor role as a JAG Major with rule of law talks to the locals. And they paid particular attention because I was also the foreign claims officer. That was actually the only part of democracy they cared about. Our money. Those guys played us like a fiddle for 8 years. They got our direct aid, and they got the benefit of our presence through the money we spent.

    They never intended to embrace Jeffersonian Democracy. They are tribal. If the international community got out of the way the central government would collapse and Iraq would't miss a beat. Tribal elders would keep things running just fine.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  6. #16
    Points: 141,269, Level: 90
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 1,781
    Overall activity: 33.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ransom's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    48002
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    44,110
    Points
    141,269
    Level
    90
    Thanks Given
    10,124
    Thanked 15,009x in 10,721 Posts
    Mentioned
    494 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    I was last there from June of 2007 through July 2008. I saw the elections and played a minor role as a JAG Major with rule of law talks to the locals. And they paid particular attention because I was also the foreign claims officer. That was actually the only part of democracy they cared about. Our money. Those guys played us like a fiddle for 8 years. They got our direct aid, and they got the benefit of our presence through the money we spent.

    They never intended to embrace Jeffersonian Democracy. They are tribal. If the international community got out of the way the central government would collapse and Iraq would't miss a beat. Tribal elders would keep things running just fine.
    We never intended Jeffersonian Democracy, I can only surmise your claim to being there is a lie. Otherwise, you couldn't possibly bone the analysis up this badly. Eyues wide shut when you went in, you've become even more unaware since leaving. You should thank God for your Uncle Ransom daily, he's been carrying what's left of your integrity here for some time. You should be ambarrassed

  7. #17
    Points: 141,269, Level: 90
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 1,781
    Overall activity: 33.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ransom's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    48002
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    44,110
    Points
    141,269
    Level
    90
    Thanks Given
    10,124
    Thanked 15,009x in 10,721 Posts
    Mentioned
    494 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    The same tribal leaders would be just fine.....I remember you telling me they'd reject ISIS outright, instead....they made alliance with the terror group.

    Just another bone fcked analysis by our resident bone fcker.

  8. #18
    Points: 147,392, Level: 92
    Level completed: 21%, Points required for next Level: 2,858
    Overall activity: 76.0%
    Achievements:
    Social50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    zelmo1234's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    156772
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    MICHIGAN
    Posts
    56,167
    Points
    147,392
    Level
    92
    Thanks Given
    24,284
    Thanked 20,056x in 14,359 Posts
    Mentioned
    432 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    You have been told before that the Middle East is in its current screwed up state because the Western imposed solution is falling apart.

    You have been told before that trying to impose another Western solution is not going to work.

    Yet you insist on imposing another Western solution to the tribal Arabs in the Middle East.....

    Dedicated. Dim (term of art), but determined.
    It is in is screwed up situation because the West, has adopted political correctness as a doctrine and refuses to do what is necessary to solve the problem.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to zelmo1234 For This Useful Post:

    Peter1469 (05-09-2016)

  10. #19
    Points: 141,269, Level: 90
    Level completed: 51%, Points required for next Level: 1,781
    Overall activity: 33.0%
    Achievements:
    50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Ransom's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    48002
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    44,110
    Points
    141,269
    Level
    90
    Thanks Given
    10,124
    Thanked 15,009x in 10,721 Posts
    Mentioned
    494 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What our resident historian calls a Jeffersonian Democracy. The Iraq Constitution.

    Article 2:
    First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

    A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

    Sounds fairly Jeffersonian

    Hold on they weren't done

    Article 89:
    Second: The Federal Supreme Court shall be made up of number of judges, and experts in Islamic jurisprudence and law experts…

    Combat roles thus decreased for US troops from 2007 surge levels, Obama by 2010 able to withdraw troops early.
    American troops reached Mr. Obama’s goal for the drawdown early — last week Gen. Ray Odierno, the American commander in Iraq, said that the number of troops had dropped to 49,700, roughly the number that would stay through next summer.
    That is less than a third of the number of troops in Iraq during the surge in 2007. Under an agreement between Iraq and the United States, the remaining troops are to leave by the end of 2011, though some Iraqi and American officials say they think that the agreement may be renegotiated to allow for a longer American military presence.
    The remaining “advise and assist” brigades will officially concentrate on supporting and training Iraqi security forces, protecting American personnel and facilities, and mounting counterterrorism operations.
    The last sentence there in this NYTimes article explaining it says much doesn't it. These advise and assist forces have ben forced back into Iraq by this same President Obama and might I add.....to the deafening silence from the once proud and loud anti-war factions.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/wo...tary.html?_r=0

    Indeed, there are members here...Peter, Maineman(Lance), fear filled and fierce anti-war Leftists who now admit a force capable should have remained in occupation in Iraq. Amazin, but then......the three words that influence the water cooler discussion...

    Uncle. Reality. Ransom.

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts