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Thread: Nanobot and micro drone warfare against civilians is now a possibility.

  1. #31
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    Ethereal's Avatar Senior Member
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    Many people knew this was coming. Simple extrapolation of past and present trends evinces as much. But the problem is not technology per se, but authoritarian government. Throughout history, they have always sought to use new technology for oppressive and exploitative purposes. Nanotechnology and microtechnology will be no different. That is why it is imperative that we push for decentralized government as it tends to spread power and wealth out as opposed to concentrating it into a smaller and smaller amount of institutional loci. Opponents of political decentralization will inevitably object with pleas of necessity and utility. But that kind of argument has always been the pretext for authoritarianism and totalitarianism. We must reject those arguments otherwise we face the possibility of an unimaginable tyranny.

    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
    --William Pitt the Younger
    Two things awe me most, the starry sky above me and the moral law within me.
    --Immanuel Kant

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    OGIS (03-21-2017)

  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGIS View Post
    True job creation. This would create whole new specialties in the fields of legal, insurance, adjusters, accounting, police training, programmers.... Just a few off the top of my heavily medicated head. I can give reasons if anyone thinks "no," but I think these are pretty obvious.

    I see protocols developing. Some will allow swarms of tiny (probably the size of peas), flying PDBs (Personal Defense Bots) to safely interpenetrate each other... say as if on a crowded sidewalk at Noon in the business district. There will be protocols for different PDB swarms in such a crowd to cooperate together to collectively protect the entire "herd" from the predator.

    PDB weaponry would probably include: - a shocker/stunner (simple capacitor),
    - a "kamakazi" emp generator to take out enemy PDBs (probably Phlebotinum powered ), and
    - a tiny explosive charge for kamakazi ramming drama.

    The first and third are also effective against human prey.

    Bad guys might have their own swarms, armed with NBC agents of assorted deadliness, as well as the above.

    Imagine ICBMs with payloads of such microbots. No mushroom clouds. The missile just shoots out hundreds or thousands of tiny missiles all of which deploy airfoils and float in the winds... and then release millions of those Bad Guy microbots.

    Scoff at pea-sized bots? Please research the curve followed by the "transistors per square mm" metric. And follow the [tons of] money. I rest my case.

    But wait! There's more! Let's go CELL-sized. Scoffing again? Back in 2014, scientists at the University of Texas built and tested a working motor small enough to fit inside a cell.
    http://newatlas.com/nanomotor-for-nanobot-drug-delivery/32160/


    Understandable fears aside, consider the medical value of having millions of (super-well-controlled!) nanobots cruising through your body in constant search of something to fix. They might even eventually be able to do things like weed-out cells that are going cancerous. Or possibly do nanosurgery and zap out with a CRISPR tools the chromosomes that mutated and caused the cell to go cancerous.

    They might be able to help out with that nasty, repetitive job (almost literally like laying chemical bricks) of rebuilding the telomeres that cap the ends of chromosomes. You might want to think a bit about the implications of that.

    Their ill-effect on you would be a tiny increase in weight and a small increase in your calorie intake (the nanobots get power from chemical reactions that, in effect, steal sugar from your cells. You eat more to compensate.

    You could consider them the nano-sized equivalent of the man-sized android prototypes being created right now by DARPA and Boston Dynamics (among many others). Those androids - Big Dog, ASIMO types, maybe spider types? snake-types? - might serve a shock-troop support function for flesh and blood soldiers.

    The nanobots will be the shock-troops for the body's white blood cells, the lymph system, and certain other critical life-support systems.

    Imagine a soldier with a nanobot-packed body.

    ***

    My answer - everyone has bots - is the only answer that works. Because sure as chit some azzhole running some chithole country somewhere is going to see this technology as a way to World Emperor-ship. Unlike nuclear bomb technology, this kind of technology is freely talked about all over the world. Millions or even billions will die.
    Oh yeah.... You know how all this will be controlled? Not by your brain it won't. By your implant.

    Just like Elon Musk recently predicted.
    .............Oh, what fresh hell is this?
    .,,,.....\_(ツ)_/
    ...... Not my circus, not my monkeys

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Many people knew this was coming. Simple extrapolation of past and present trends evinces as much. But the problem is not technology per se, but authoritarian government. Throughout history, they have always sought to use new technology for oppressive and exploitative purposes. Nanotechnology and microtechnology will be no different. That is why it is imperative that we push for decentralized government as it tends to spread power and wealth out as opposed to concentrating it into a smaller and smaller amount of institutional loci. Opponents of political decentralization will inevitably object with pleas of necessity and utility. But that kind of argument has always been the pretext for authoritarianism and totalitarianism. We must reject those arguments otherwise we face the possibility of an unimaginable tyranny.

    Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
    --William Pitt the Younger
    I agree. But I am not hopeful.
    .............Oh, what fresh hell is this?
    .,,,.....\_(ツ)_/
    ...... Not my circus, not my monkeys

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OGIS View Post
    There is an answer... the only possible answer: more drones. More drones, owned by everybody. Computerized personal protection drones that will kamikaze an attacking drone. Eventually, weaponized drones that can "stand their ground and hit back." It's actually a bit more nuanced than that, but the concept is quite similar to the justifications for CC and "no entry restrictions" into, for example, courtrooms.

    In the Old West, it is said, God made men, but Sam Colt made them equal. Either we bottle the genie - which will NOT work - or we allow citizens/civilians to obtain and deploy their own clouds of defense drones.

    Why yes, there will be many unpleasant situations.

    In the New America, God will (perhaps) make men, but (also perhaps) some soon-to-be-richer-than-Croesus drone manufacturing corporations will make them equal.

    Understand that (after initial introduction) these things would become cheaper than dirt. Same price curve, probably, as desktop PCs went through.
    Agreed, the important thing is that citizens must not be able to defend themselves, they must have no physical power at all. All power must be in the hands of government because there is no chance citizens might ever have to defend themselves from government, governments never take advantage of physical power to abuse, imprison or even murder citizens. It never happens. Also the police are able to protect all people from criminal harm all the time, so again no citizen ever needs to be able to protect themselves.

    So we need to laugh at the idea of people wanting to be able to defend themselves like by having guns by joking about how they should be able to have robots. Excellent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by decedent View Post
    I was loosely involved in some research for auto-navigation (unsupervised pathfinding) using quad drones. As you can see, they're clumsy. They're also loud, and louder with payload. Jamming won't affect a completely autonomous drone, as you stated. There's a lot of military money being poured into this kind of AI research because it can, in theory, minimize collateral damage by getting very close to the target -- basically flying assassins.

    You know what that reminds me of? The hunter-seeker assassin drone scene in the movie Dune. At 59 seconds.

    .............Oh, what fresh hell is this?
    .,,,.....\_(ツ)_/
    ...... Not my circus, not my monkeys

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    Quote Originally Posted by Croft View Post
    Agreed, the important thing is that citizens must not be able to defend themselves, they must have no physical power at all. All power must be in the hands of government because there is no chance citizens might ever have to defend themselves from government, governments never take advantage of physical power to abuse, imprison or even murder citizens. It never happens. Also the police are able to protect all people from criminal harm all the time, so again no citizen ever needs to be able to protect themselves.

    So we need to laugh at the idea of people wanting to be able to defend themselves like by having guns by joking about how they should be able to have robots. Excellent.
    You are taking my post entirely the wrong way. I am absolutely serious about what I wrote. I see you joined in Oct. '16, during my sabbatical from tPF. I'm pretty sure that if you go back to look at my old posts you will find confirmation of what I am saying here.

    And I have an investment in this. My wife and I are on year two now of writing a hard SF novel where individual protective drone swarms are as commonplace as your actual skin. (Not only that, but our drones also have tactile sensors, so a solid shell of drones around you would literally include the touch sensors of an actual skin.) Between us, we have literally spent hundreds of man-hours researching this subject from all angles, including - yes! - the 2nd Amendment angle.

    The laws necessary to allow this are a direct outgrowth of the 2nd Amendment. Why? Because a PDB drone swarm owned by that burglar who just entered your bedroom will make your personal defense rifle or pistol as effective as a cap gun. Speculation? Of course. But do you doubt that the Bad Guys would not be among the first to try and exploit the new technology?

    [Do you know who brought the horseman foot stirrup to it's greatest, most terrifying effectiveness? Some of the world's first organized Bad Guys. The Mongols, trained from almost birth to ride in the saddle, to stand tall in their stirrups (out of contact with the saddle), to compensate with their body movement for the movement of their tough little steppes ponies, and then to fire their long bows with terrifying accuracy at the curb-stomped opposition. The Mongol horse warriors were the world's first Blitzkrieg light armor, and they went through opposing armies (and civilians) like battle axes through soft butter.]

    The people that research these things already, right now, have a huge amount of the tech and expertise required to create a drone swarm exactly such as we envision. Follow the money. Individual PDB swarms are the next trillion dollar industry because they are a paradigm shift in the age-old march of attack/defense technology. Think other paradigm shifts. Most ushered in a new age; all had devastating effects to the existing social and cultural structures: bronze weapons / iron weapons / steel weapons / horses / stirrup / chain armor / long bow / plate armor / wind up crossbow / cannon / muskets / semi-auto rifle / machine gun / airplane / nuclear bomb.

    Think of a PDB bot swarm as semi-intelligent, reactive, and three-dimensionally-flexible plate armor - at a distance from your skin greater than right next to it. Make sense? Yes, it does.
    In case you missed it, here are some of our thoughts on PDBs:

    Quote Originally Posted by OGIS View Post
    True job creation. This would create whole new specialties in the fields of legal, insurance, adjusters, accounting, police training, programmers.... Just a few off the top of my heavily medicated head. I can give reasons if anyone thinks "no," but I think these are pretty obvious.

    I see protocols developing. Some will allow swarms of tiny (probably the size of peas), flying PDBs (Personal Defense Bots) to safely interpenetrate each other... say as if on a crowded sidewalk at Noon in the business district. There will be protocols for different PDB swarms in such a crowd to cooperate together to collectively protect the entire "herd" from the predator.

    PDB weaponry would probably include: - a shocker/stunner (simple capacitor), - a "kamakazi" emp generator to take out enemy PDBs (probably Phlebotinum powered ), and
    - a tiny explosive charge for kamakazi ramming drama.

    The first and third are also effective against human prey.

    Bad guys might have their own swarms, armed with NBC agents of assorted deadliness, as well as the above.

    Imagine ICBMs with payloads of such microbots. No mushroom clouds. The missile just shoots out hundreds or thousands of tiny missiles all of which deploy airfoils and float in the winds... and then release millions of those Bad Guy microbots.

    Scoff at pea-sized bots? Please research the curve followed by the "transistors per square mm" metric. And follow the [tons of] money. I rest my case.

    But wait! There's more! Let's go CELL-sized. Scoffing again? Back in 2014, scientists at the University of Texas built and tested a working motor small enough to fit inside a cell.
    http://newatlas.com/nanomotor-for-nanobot-drug-delivery/32160/

    Understandable fears aside, consider the medical value of having millions of (super-well-controlled!) nanobots cruising through your body in constant search of something to fix. They might even eventually be able to do things like weed-out cells that are going cancerous. Or possibly do nanosurgery and zap out with a CRISPR tools the chromosomes that mutated and caused the cell to go cancerous.

    They might be able to help out with that nasty, repetitive job (almost literally like laying chemical bricks) of rebuilding the telomeres that cap the ends of chromosomes. You might want to think a bit about the implications of that.

    Their ill-effect on you would be a tiny increase in weight and a small increase in your calorie intake (the nanobots get power from chemical reactions that, in effect, steal sugar from your cells. You eat more to compensate.

    You could consider them the nano-sized equivalent of the man-sized android prototypes being created right now by DARPA and Boston Dynamics (among many others). Those androids - Big Dog, ASIMO types, maybe spider types? snake-types? - might serve a shock-troop support function for flesh and blood soldiers.

    The nanobots will be the shock-troops for the body's white blood cells, the lymph system, and certain other critical life-support systems.

    Imagine a soldier with a nanobot-packed body.

    ***

    My answer - everyone has bots - is the only answer that works. Because sure as chit some azzhole running some chithole country somewhere is going to see this technology as a way to World Emperor-ship. Unlike nuclear bomb technology, this kind of technology is freely talked about all over the world. Millions or even billions will die.

    Remember that wild and crazy loser idiot guy, billionaire Elon Musk saying that we would all need implants to survive in the coming new world of robotics and AI? Well PDB swarm control, and managing your body's medical nanobots, would be two good tasks for them.
    .............Oh, what fresh hell is this?
    .,,,.....\_(ツ)_/
    ...... Not my circus, not my monkeys

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