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Thread: Immigration not a crime

  1. #101
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    I've almost come to the end of the points I wanted to make.
    THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF THE REAL DISCUSSION. SEE POSTS 1, 9, 14, 38, 40, 43, 49, 50 and 78 and 84, 88, 91, and 92


    The anti-immigrant lobby said undocumented foreigners were a drain on the American public. Then 500 economists disagreed. The anti-immigrant lobby said undocumented foreigners don't pay taxes, and the Chief Actuary for the Social Security Administration disagreed with them.



    So, as a consolation prize, the anti-immigrant lobby wants the undocumented to be criminals... as if spending tax dollars to stroke their ego will make the issue better. It does not.



    EVERYTHING the anti-immigrant lobby has put forth calls for a bigger and more intrusive government. They have spent TRILLIONS of dollars and jeopardized many of your constitutional Liberties. Yet, by their own words, the perceived problem is as bad today as it was over a decade and half ago when they garnered front page news headlines. It's time to offer up better ideas.



    Despite all their criticisms, not one time has even ONE of those being critical of me answered any of the many questions I've put on the table. I've been more than diligent in responding to them. IF, at the end of the day, the anti-immigrant lobby sticks to the theme that “they (sic) don't belong here” and the anti- immigrant lobby does not support immigration reform, then they owe you honest answers.



    Explain how you can not be anti – immigrant and support laws that discriminate against whites. Explain how calling people criminals is a good thing when it's counterproductive to your cause. If you still hold the same view, would you support returning to the first statute the U.S. had regarding immigration... it was limited to whites?

    In the course of my relevant posts we have witnessed the anti-immigrant lobby dodging, ducking, and deflecting. They have treated me with disrespect and disdain and tried to talk down to me. One poster even claimed he got information from an attorney, but refuses to tell the name of the attorney - Meanwhile I have cited the U.S. Attorney's Criminal Resource Manual as proof that improper entry (in and of itself) is a civil violation of the law. Still, at the end of the day, the anti-immigrant lobby doesn't have a case so they ignored my previous posts and questions.

    If these people are that stubborn and that petty - If they don't care about the long term ramifications of their actions any more than they exhibited here, you have to ask yourself if they are qualified to lead a nation on this issue. I think not. They do want me to address yet another pretext - and I will. Then I can give you the real solutions and we can call it a wrap - if you like.

  2. #102
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    Don's Avatar Senior Member
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    All these arguments excusing people who come here illegally should be directed to the peoples and governments of the countries they come from. Convince them that they need to make drastic changes to their systems that make their people want to flee to other countries for opportunity. Are they helpless and or too stupid to change and if so why should that be our problem? Using the U.S. as a relief valve so you don't have to deal with your problems is the same thing as $#@!ting on us.


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  4. #103
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    From Webster Dictionary: Definition of violation for English Language Learners

    - the act of doing something that is not allowed by a law or rule
    “Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured…but not everyone must prove they are a citizen. And now, any of those who refuse, or are unable, to prove they are citizens will receive free insurance paid for by those who are forced to buy insurance because they are citizens.”



    Jim Hays


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  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by KathyS View Post
    From Webster Dictionary: Definition of violation for English Language Learners

    - the act of doing something that is not allowed by a law or rule
    And again, what is your point? Did you read the OP? NOBODY on this thread has disputed whether or not an action is legal or illegal. It's not a part of the subject. Do you know what the topic is about?

    Read posts1, 9, 14, 38, 40, 43, 49, 50, 78, 84, 88, 91, 92 and 101. Check those out and get back to me.

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    THIS IS A CONTINUATION OF THE REAL DISCUSSION. SEE POSTS 1, 9, 14, 38, 40, 43, 49, 50 and 78 and 84, 88, 91, 92, and 101

    Well I have endured challenges by people mistakenly believing that statistical data somehow refutes RULINGS by immigration officials, the manuals that U.S. Attorneys use to pursue immigration violations and rulings by the highest ranking immigration official in the United States. This was supposed to be a give and take kind of discussion, but most of the critics don't even bother to READ the OP. Be that as it may, for those who want to keep throwing out pretexts, I'm ready to respond to the issue of "vetting" people.

    "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yeild, and government to gain ground." Thomas Jefferson

    "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." William Pitt

    Today we are in a war, albeit undeclared, and Islamic fundamentalists have declared that they will convert us or kill us. Every nation on the globe should declare a war against the Islamists and then they could keep them out of their country, off airplanes and, for the most part off the streets until terrorism is defeated. Now, that is justified in a state of war.

    OTOH, the constant paranoia wherein the right thinks you should live in a POLICE STATE with constant surveillance 24 / 7 / 365 is wholly unjustified. Allow me a couple of examples:

    Maj. Nidal Hasan went on a rampage and killed thirteen of his fellow soldiers

    Omar Mateen, who worked for a British security firm, went on a rampage and killed 49 people in a Florida nightclub while injuring 53 more

    Syed Rizwan and Tashfeen Malik killed 14 people and injured 22 others in a San Bernadino massacre

    In all of these examples the perpetrators underwent extensive background checks and vetting procedures. The moral here is that background checks and vetting procedures are about as effective as a eunuch in a brothel.

    Sure, we have a Right to know who comes and goes, but the right wants to focus on people from south of the border while not demanding that our efforts be expended by declaring a state of war with Islam and prohibiting them from coming here.

    Our neighbors along our borders are no more inclined to commit crimes than our neighbors in the next state. So, the anti-immigrant lobby can scream that proper vetting procedure crap at me all day long. What I would say is this:

    When I was young, my family lived in Los Angeles. We would go to Mexico on occasion. You pulled up to the guys at the border and they asked to see your driver's license, asked a couple of questions and you went into Mexico. There is no legitimate reason that should change.

    I am against all this invasion of privacy paranoia. The paranoia will only serve to encourage the left to continue. White guys are dangerous. We have to check them out. You need to be checked out in order to buy a gun, get a job, or attend a church. This POLICE STATE will have no limits if somebody doesn't stand up and say what needs to be said.

    I'm almost where I wanted to be before giving you my solutions for the immigration debacle.
    Last edited by Scrounger; 03-25-2017 at 11:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrounger View Post
    "A criminal offence, in this case, is a violation of a federal law"If I misinterpreted your words, then I apologize. Just trying to move forward on this.
    No problem, but I do think that undocumented immigration is a crime. I don't know if it should be a crime, but violating a federal statute is normally considered a crime. However, it seems that people who are working and participating to any society should be able to become citizens.


    White nationalists have decided that the one thing that made America great should now be stopped after hundreds of years of fairly open borders. I attribute this wave of white nationalism to an overreaction to ISIS and a black President. Trump was the most xenophobic GOP candidate, and he won. No surprise.
    I have a big cook.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrounger View Post
    I can appreciate what you posted; however, even after having muddled my way through your links, NOTHING disproves what I have said. Improper entry in and of itself is a civil violation, NOT a criminal and a civil violation. In order to get a criminal conviction in a Title 8 charge, the offender had to try to elude authorities, lie to them, misrepresent himself, etc. That's just the way it is.

    BTW, in post # 1 I provided you to a link that goes to the U.S. Attorney's Criminal Resource Manual. Read it.
    "Improper Entry" is a Class B Misdemeanor.

    Period.

    It's usually not tried as a crime but rather settled as a civil infraction.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by decedent View Post
    No problem, but I do think that undocumented immigration is a crime. I don't know if it should be a crime, but violating a federal statute is normally considered a crime. However, it seems that people who are working and participating to any society should be able to become citizens.


    White nationalists have decided that the one thing that made America great should now be stopped after hundreds of years of fairly open borders. I attribute this wave of white nationalism to an overreaction to ISIS and a black President. Trump was the most xenophobic GOP candidate, and he won. No surprise.

    There is less white nationalism in this country than black nationalism. Note. Nationalism, as discussed in the current political environment, nationalism v. globalism, is neither white nor black.

    You are misusing the term xenophobia. Whether deliberately or through ignorance, I don't know.

    There is no large wave of "white nationalism." That statement is likely a tactic to poison the well - a logical fallacy used to get your opponent to withdraw from a debate out of fear of being identified with something bad. In this case racism.
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  13. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by decedent View Post
    No problem, but I do think that undocumented immigration is a crime. I don't know if it should be a crime, but violating a federal statute is normally considered a crime. However, it seems that people who are working and participating to any society should be able to become citizens.


    White nationalists have decided that the one thing that made America great should now be stopped after hundreds of years of fairly open borders. I attribute this wave of white nationalism to an overreaction to ISIS and a black President. Trump was the most xenophobic GOP candidate, and he won. No surprise.
    If you read the posts I call relevant posts (those where I explain the position) you will learn it is NOT a crime to cross the border. Yeah, it's illegal, but it is not tried in a criminal court. It's a complex technicality, but I've discussed this in the thread.

    When a person lies to authorities, evades them, conceals a fact, etc. then they have committed a crime. Here's the rub:

    Once a person gets into the United States, the criminal courts cannot prove a person entered improperly - not to the standards set by the courts. Being in the U.S. is not a crime, so this entire argument is moot. My problem with people such as yourself is that you do not take into account that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

    Once I was pursued by the LEO community. They, according to the media, hatched a plan to break down my door, kill me and swear that I resisted arrest. At best, their own internal investigation admitted that they had cost me my job, credit rating and jeopardized my security clearance. Why? They had no evidence of a crime. All they had was the word of a Confidential Informant claiming I advocated criminal activity, who BTW, wanted my job.

    When I had the government's lawyers assembled for a deposition, I asked them when in the Hell we began pursuing people absent Due Process and presuming they were criminals. One of the lawyers looked me in the face from a distance no more than six feet and said, "We do it all the time, sir. Haven't you ever heard of an illegal alien?"

    Thomas Paine, a founding father, warned us:

    "An avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."

    I guess you would have to have been in my shoes to understand that.
    Last edited by Scrounger; 03-26-2017 at 08:51 AM.

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    Immigration legally to any country is not a crime! Sneaking in or using deception to get in is a crime! Banning immigration, for any reason, from any place, is legitimate and legal!

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