Inside the Army's plan to ditch the M-4 and the 5.56:

[Cletus]

The .223 is a good round with better man stopping power than the 7.62. The problem is with it's range. Even an SPR MK-12 can really only reach out to 450-500 yards effectively. Most engagements in places like Afghanistan take place well over that distance.

The 7.62 x 39mm round has a max effective range of 300 - 400 meters. Its practical effective range is closer to 200. The 5.56 round, even in a standard service rifle, not a DMR, has a range advantage over the AK. If the other guy is using 7.63 x 51 (NATO) or a 7.62 x 54 (Soviet), he will have the reach advantage over the 5.56.

[Casper]

The 7.62 x 39mm round has a max effective range of 300 - 400 meters. Its practical effective range is closer to 200. The 5.56 round, even in a standard service rifle, not a DMR, has a range advantage over the AK. If the other guy is using 7.63 x 51 (NATO) or a 7.62 x 54 (Soviet), he will have the reach advantage over the 5.56.

True, especially at longer distances, hence why I also own a Springfield M1A Scout, bigger punch at a longer distance. That said have you had to drag an M14 around for a day or two along with the ammo and you get the idea of why bigger guns have some disadvantages, heavier and one can not carry as much ammo. Something in the middle would be a far better choice for real world use.

[Archer0915]

True, especially at longer distances, hence why I also own a Springfield M1A Scout, bigger punch at a longer distance. That said have you had to drag an M14 around for a day or two along with the ammo and you get the idea of why bigger guns have some disadvantages, heavier and one can not carry as much ammo. Something in the middle would be a far better choice for real world use.

Agreed! A refit of the 5.56 is the best option. Same magazine, hell same almost everything with some minor refits and a new barrel. Rounds will be 40 to 60 grains heavier and there are 7000 grains in a pound. 6.5 PPC or Mpc.

[Cletus]

One of the things that people need to understand is that the way rifles are used on the battlefield today is not the same way they were used in WWII, for example. Rifles like the M14 or the M1 Garand or the '03 Springfield were in a class referred to as BATTLE Rifles. They were intended to be used with a lower volume of fire at greater ranges and hopefully, with greater accuracy than the ASSAULT rifles of today. The transition from Battle Rifle to Assault Rifle began in Vietnam and it was necessary for it to change because the nature of ground warfare there was different. That is why the M1 Carbine was so popular in the Pacific... dense vegetation, relatively short range engagements, often requiring a high volume of fire, made rifles like the Garand, not impractical, but often less practical. It was still the dominant rifle, but the seed had been planted and although the M14 was the successor to the M1, the search for a lighter, intermediate power rifle had begun.

The M14 was only in service for 3 years before the M16 started showing up in the field in limited numbers and was only in service for 8 years before it officially replaced by the M16 as the Army's primary infantry weapon. The M16 and its variants have served in that capacity longer than any other service rifle.

[Cletus]

Agreed! A refit of the 5.56 is the best option. Same magazine, hell same almost everything with some minor refits and a new barrel. Rounds will be 40 to 60 grains heavier and there are 7000 grains in a pound. ^.5 PPC or Mpc.

There really is no need to change calibers. There is only a need to change bullets.

[Archer0915]

There really is no need to change calibers. There is only a need to change bullets.

Well we need to change some mindsets then. We need expanding bullets or or larger and heavier bullets. The 5.56 is great but it does not have the fast energy transfer that could kill faster. Why? From my understanding, at the design onset the thought was to maim and take out more than one because he had to save his buddy.

We need to rethink things because many of these things today are far from the humans we have fought before.

[Cletus]

Well we need to change some mindsets then. We need expanding bullets or or larger and heavier bullets. The 5.56 is great but it does not have the fast energy transfer that could kill faster. Why? From my understanding, at the design onset the thought was to maim and take out more than one because he had to save his buddy.

That was actually never a consideration.

I do agree though that we need to change some mindsets. We need to get out from under the Hague Convention and all our guys to use modern ammo. SF has had good luck with conventional 5.56 by stepping up to a 77 grain bullet. That is a start, but we really need to start using hollow pointed or frangible ammunition. Something like a Hornady TAP round or an equivalent.

The military often gets stuck on stupid and either refuses to change something that needs to be changed or insists on changing something that doesn't need to be changed. Changing calibers and refitting our forces with a new caliber rifle would be incredibly expensive. We also need to take into account our allies. Most of them switched to 5.56 because we did. They may not have the ability or the desire to retool and refit and if the don't, we just lost ammo compatibility and created a logistical nightmare.

The platform is good. The cartridge itself is good. Fix the bullet.

[Archer0915]

That was actually never a consideration.

I do agree though that we need to change some mindsets. We need to get out from under the Hague Convention and all our guys to use modern ammo. SF has had good luck with conventional 5.56 by stepping up to a 77 grain bullet. That is a start, but we really need to start using hollow pointed or frangible ammunition. Something like a Hornady TAP round or an equivalent.

The military often gets stuck on stupid and either refuses to change something that needs to be changed or insists on something that doesn't need to be changed. Changing calibers and refitting our forces with a new caliber rifle would be incredibly expensive. We also need to take into account our allies. Most of them switched to 5.56 because we did. They may not have the ability or the desire to retool and refit and if the don't, we just lost ammo compatibility and created a logistical nightmare.

The platform is good. The cartridge itself is good. Fix the bullet.

Just read something interesting. You are correct that it is not a matter of fact that the 16, well - 5.56 was never intended as a maim projectile but it actually turned into one. Many assumes (because some weapons had been designed to inflict that kind of damage, that the 223 was that way. At short and medium ranges the crimp groove is what causes the issues with the "Tumbling" It has little to do with the rifling and much to do with the crimp allowing flex after hitting flesh. This is why the .223 leaves a nasty hole. It mat not transfer energy for the shock value but it makes up for it in carnage.

So going back to the old treaty, no hollow point and FMJ only...

The Undersigned, Plenipotentiaries of the Powers represented at the International Peace Conference at The Hague, duly authorized to that effect by their Governments,Inspired by the sentiments which found expression in the Declaration of St. Petersburg of the 29th November (11th December), 1868,
Declare as follows:
The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.
It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.
The ratification shall be deposited at The Hague.
A proces-verbal shall be drawn up on the receipt of each ratification, a copy of which, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to all the Contracting Powers.
The non-Signatory Powers may adhere to the present Declaration. For this purpose they must make their adhesion known to the Contracting Powers by means of a written notification addressed to the Netherlands Government, and by it communicated to all the other Contracting Powers.
In the event of one of the High Contracting Parties denouncing the present Declaration, such denunciation shall not take effect until a year after the notification made in writing to the Netherlands Government, and forthwith communicated by it to all the other Contracting Powers.
This denunciation shall only affect the notifying Power.
In faith of which the Plenipotentiaries have signed the present Declaration, and have affixed their seals thereto.
Done at The Hague the 29th July, 1899, in a single copy, which shall be kept in the archives of the Netherlands Government, and of which copies, duly certified, shall be sent through the diplomatic channel to the Contracting Powers.
[Signatures]

ISIS never signed! We are free to hollow point their asses. Syria? Iraq? Wait we are not fighting a nation! Matter of fact, we have not been at war with any signatories so why the hell are we honoring something that does not apply?

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.
The present Declaration shall be ratified as soon as possible.

[Cletus]

Archer, it has been a pleasure shooting the breeze with you (no pun intended).

Unfortunately, duty calls.

Another time. Maybe we could bribe the powers that be to start a firearms / shooting forum at some point in the not too distant future. There are enough shooters of widely varied experience here to make it interesting and fun.

[Archer0915]

Archer, it has been a pleasure shooting the breeze with you (no pun intended).

Unfortunately, duty calls.

Another time. Maybe we could bribe the powers that be to start a firearms / shooting forum at some point in the not too distant future. There are enough shooters of widely varied experience here to make it interesting and fun.

Thanks, enjoyed the convo and learned one thing I had been taught was not the case and the physics behind the 5.56 tumble.