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Thread: What the 2012 U.S. Election Implies

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    By "won the popular vote", I refer to acquiring a plurality of it. I think you knew that.
    That certainly carries far different implications from what you were attempting to argue. Again, it's highly likely that Clinton would have lost in 1992 if Perot had not run. Possibly in 1996 as well. You analysis needs work.

    I give you evidence including a link and you call me delusional without substantiation. Yeah I believe that about sums up the level of dialogue here.
    An editorial is not evidence. Try again. Secondly, I am calling all women who felt that their right to an abortion was being threatened delusional. If that's the case then they were easily swayed by propaganda and fear mongering. That says less about the GOP than it does the political acumen of female voters.
    Last edited by Mister D; 11-11-2012 at 11:36 AM.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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  2. #12
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    Polly, you make a good effort here and I appreciate it. Unfortunately, I think you've been snookered on the "war on women."

    To start with, the issue isn't and never was equal pay for women. The issue is having the government enforce their version of it, which is not only impossible but fatally flawed like virtually everything else they do. You cannot micromanage pay in the millions of companies out there, you cannot determine from D.C. whether people are really doing equivalent jobs or not. All you can and will do with this is create mountains of job killing paperwork and litigation that will put people of both sexes out of work.

    Romney never suggested for a moment that abortion be banned, that birth control be banned, or any of that. What we have all suggested is that it is not the responsibility of the taxpayers, many millions of whom oppose abortion, to pay for these things. That is a major difference which I hope doesn't escape you.

    The rest of it was a pure fraud. The Obama campaign created the "war on women" fiction, hung it around the neck of a moderate who showed no inclination to engage in it whatsoever, and sold it to a bunch of emotional women. They demagoged class warfare, they demagogued race and they won.

    This election really was about the economy. The Democrats and their policies are simply wrong and destructive of the private sector, particularly small business. I am one of those and I know a whole lot more of them. To a person, they are playing defense or getting out. You simply aren't going to have growth under these conditions. You can't drive the energy costs of business and consumers sky high with wars on coals and domestic energy development, and have growth and new jobs. It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

    I'll leave this for now. By December, it will be manifestly obvious that business is going on strike and playing full court defense against the cost and regulations of ObamaCare. I'll be here with the hard information to back that up at that time. For now, I can tell you what the conversation is among my circle of FORMER job creators and it isn't "forward."

    And Polly, power at the ballot box won by lies and ignorance is not the same as the power of the purse. You all voted and "defeated" your employers but let me assure you they are going to have the final say here. Loving the employee and hating the employer may feel good to you lefities but it doesn't put bread on the table.

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  4. #13
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    The comments about rape by several high profile Republicans gave the Democrats a lot of ammo to back up their claims of a War on Women. IMO it was a few clueless guys who said really stupid things - but you can't deny it painted the whole party in a very negative light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoons View Post
    Polly, you make a good effort here and I appreciate it. Unfortunately, I think you've been snookered on the "war on women."

    To start with, the issue isn't and never was equal pay for women. The issue is having the government enforce their version of it, which is not only impossible but fatally flawed like virtually everything else they do. You cannot micromanage pay in the millions of companies out there, you cannot determine from D.C. whether people are really doing equivalent jobs or not. All you can and will do with this is create mountains of job killing paperwork and litigation that will put people of both sexes out of work.

    Romney never suggested for a moment that abortion be banned, that birth control be banned, or any of that. What we have all suggested is that it is not the responsibility of the taxpayers, many millions of whom oppose abortion, to pay for these things. That is a major difference which I hope doesn't escape you.

    The rest of it was a pure fraud. The Obama campaign created the "war on women" fiction, hung it around the neck of a moderate who showed no inclination to engage in it whatsoever, and sold it to a bunch of emotional women. They demagoged class warfare, they demagogued race and they won.

    This election really was about the economy. The Democrats and their policies are simply wrong and destructive of the private sector, particularly small business. I am one of those and I know a whole lot more of them. To a person, they are playing defense or getting out. You simply aren't going to have growth under these conditions. You can't drive the energy costs of business and consumers sky high with wars on coals and domestic energy development, and have growth and new jobs. It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

    I'll leave this for now. By December, it will be manifestly obvious that business is going on strike and playing full court defense against the cost and regulations of ObamaCare. I'll be here with the hard information to back that up at that time. For now, I can tell you what the conversation is among my circle of FORMER job creators and it isn't "forward."

    And Polly, power at the ballot box won by lies and ignorance is not the same as the power of the purse. You all voted and "defeated" your employers but let me assure you they are going to have the final say here. Loving the employee and hating the employer may feel good to you lefities but it doesn't put bread on the table.
    You have the patience of a saint.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Conley View Post
    The comments about rape by several high profile Republicans gave the Democrats a lot of ammo to back up their claims of a War on Women. IMO it was a few clueless guys who said really stupid things - but you can't deny it painted the whole party in a very negative light.
    no doubt.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Conley View Post
    The comments about rape by several high profile Republicans gave the Democrats a lot of ammo to back up their claims of a War on Women. IMO it was a few clueless guys who said really stupid things - but you can't deny it painted the whole party in a very negative light.
    I certainly agree. The Republicans need to get rid of these fundamentalist fools and focus on one thing and one thing only, restoring prosperity to America.

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    how would they do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainecoons View Post
    I certainly agree. The Republicans need to get rid of these fundamentalist fools and focus on one thing and one thing only, restoring prosperity to America.
    We can hope.

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    Mister D wrote:
    That certainly carries far different implications from what you were attempting to argue. Again, it's highly likely that Clinton would have lost in 1992 if Perot had not run. Possibly in 1996 as well. You analysis needs work.
    Hmm. I've heard that case before, but have never been convinced by it. Here's why: Mr. Perot was a centrist. As such, he seemed able to attract quite a few people both on the right AND on the left. The evidence of his having a decisive spoiler effect in either cycle hence seems quite minimal, though I'll admit to not having all the evidence on that.

    An editorial is not evidence.
    Exit poll data is solid evidence. The linked editorial references that and several facts and seeks to make sense of them in a way that I agree with.

    Mainecoons wrote:
    Romney never suggested for a moment that abortion be banned, that birth control be banned, or any of that.
    First off, I'd just like to thank you for your thoughtful reply! I enjoy reading posts like that even if I don't agree with all or even most that's said in them. Makes me feel like someone paid attention to what I had to say.

    Okay that said, let me get to my response to the above quote:

    Actually he signed onto a national Personhood Amendment earlier this year. Those define life as beginning at conception for all legal purposes. It allows the government to arrest doctors who perform abortions and perhaps even women who have them. Those (Personhood Amendments) don't even allow any exceptions for rape and can effectively outlaw hormonal forms of birth control. Of course he's also proclaimed himself pro-choice before (1994, 2002) and then later in the presidential campaign (this one) took a different position still on abortion, opposing it generally but allowing exceptions for cases of rape and the life of the mother, so...who really knows what Mr. Romney's actual position was on the subject?

    To start with, the issue isn't and never was equal pay for women. The issue is having the government enforce their version of it, which is not only impossible but fatally flawed like virtually everything else they do.
    So...we should have equal pay laws, but...they just shouldn't be enforced...?

    The rest of it was a pure fraud. The Obama campaign created the "war on women" fiction, hung it around the neck of a moderate who showed no inclination to engage in it whatsoever, and sold it to a bunch of emotional women.
    This is where people tend to go wrong: in blaming the masses. Messaging makes a difference for sure, but I find that people tend to know what's in their interests and what isn't pretty well. You can't just message your way around that. Ultimately people vote the way they do for real reasons, not just because they're gullible. Here you're implying that a solid majority of women don't know what their interests are. I find that hard to believe.

    Just some thoughts.
    Last edited by IMPress Polly; 11-11-2012 at 01:02 PM.

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    No Polly, we shouldn't have equal pay laws because they don't work.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on the intelligence of the great mass of the voters. For every one of you and me or our peers, I believe there are thousands of people who don't understand economics and politics at a very fundamental level. Many of them can't even spell correctly or write complete and inteligible sentences.

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