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Thread: Poverty

  1. #21
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    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shady Slim View Post
    At one point within the geographical bounds of North America, there were people who had been living on this land for centuries. They had at their disposal one of the largest collection of natural resources of anywhere.

    On the other side of the world, there were very small countries that were considered wealthy. Portugal, Spain and Italy have no where near the natural resources as North America.

    These small countries thrived while the native Americans were dirt poor. Lewis and Clark described throughout their westward expansion journey the miserable conditions these Indians lived in.

    So, after centuries of living within the borders of the newly formed U.S., why were these indians still in poverty?

    They could only solve short term issues. Unable to look ahead, they were dirt poor.

    The white man was superior in creating wealth and being able to understand destiny.

    This is proven time after time. Only the white man was able to advance within his civilization. ALL other races whether blacks from Africa, Indians from North America, even those descendant from middle eastern countries contributed very little to the advancement of society.

    Oh yes, there were a couple of major discoveries by blacks or middle eastern cultures but the white man is solely responsible for the wealth and advancement of cultures to where we are today.

    The Chinese were making discovery after discovery while blacks in Africa still were living in grass huts. Even today, their are cultures and small divisions of populations, mainly in South America who still use spears to throw at monkeys. What has held them back? I would say that little contact with white man has kept them back.

    Even up to that magical year of 1492, population of indians in America still lived exactly the same way they did for thousands of years. Only by the white man's intervention were entire cultures able to advance even moderately.

    Not so. Listen to Terry Anderson interviewed at Terry Anderson on Native American Economics. A major reason native Indians remain in poverty has to do with the way the government set up land ownership. In many cases ownership was assigned to a tribe and as each generation comes along ownership is more and more dispersed until 1000s own it, making it virtually imposssible to make decisions about its use. In contrast, he tells the following story:

    I was visiting an Indian on the Flathead Reservation here in Montana and we were taking some Swiss people to visit this person; and I was explaining to the Swiss people that it's likely to be a substandard house, poor care of the land, and so on. We arrive; it's a beautiful home, nice car, library. And ultimately I said to the member of the Salish-Kootenai Confederated Tribes, 'This is an anomaly. How do you explain it?' And he leaned on his elbow and said, 'I own this place.' And I said, 'But aren't we on the Reservation? Dah, dah, dah.' 'I own this place.' And the third time, when I ask a stupid question, he said, 'I own this place,' and I said, 'Like I own my house?' And he said, 'Yes.' So, that's the fee simple land. And some of the land is owned by Indians. And my friend who I mentioned before, Bill Yellowtail, he has a wonderful ranch on the Crow Reservation.

  2. #22
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    Casper's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Still the point is missed. Poverty is the natural, normal state. To get out of it, you need to produce and trade.
    What I find interesting is that what you stated above, poverty is normal. So is this to get us to accept it, how about the huge numbers of those that work hard all their lives and only manage to stay slightly about the poverty level. I think such thinking is exactly what the rich and power brokers want us to think, poverty is your lot or just above it, get used to it and be grateful for what you have, sounds like someone wants the serfs to just shut up. How did that work out in Russia, how has it worked out in Iran, how has it worked out many countries when the rich just tell the masses to just eat cake? Once the middle-class is gone the poor masses will deal with the powerful in a very ugly manner, history repeats itself often.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Not so. Listen to Terry Anderson interviewed at Terry Anderson on Native American Economics. A major reason native Indians remain in poverty has to do with the way the government set up land ownership. In many cases ownership was assigned to a tribe and as each generation comes along ownership is more and more dispersed until 1000s own it, making it virtually imposssible to make decisions about its use. In contrast, he tells the following story:
    What does that have to do with how native Americans lived for centuries before 1492?


    Geezuz man, the government did not set up land ownership (reservations) pre-Columbian.


    I will say it again, white man was sailing across oceans with their steel forges while entire lands of native populations were squeezing the foreheads of infants between between pieces of wood to appear more "attractive".

    If not for the white man, this land would still be living in the flint-age. You do not need any more proof of that than indigenous tribes in South America today. They had nothing until shown by the white man.

    Did the native Americans consider themselves "wealthy"? I guess so if you have a full belly and a buffalo skin over your head.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casper View Post
    What I find interesting is that what you stated above, poverty is normal. So is this to get us to accept it, how about the huge numbers of those that work hard all their lives and only manage to stay slightly about the poverty level. I think such thinking is exactly what the rich and power brokers want us to think, poverty is your lot or just above it, get used to it and be grateful for what you have, sounds like someone wants the serfs to just shut up. How did that work out in Russia, how has it worked out in Iran, how has it worked out many countries when the rich just tell the masses to just eat cake? Once the middle-class is gone the poor masses will deal with the powerful in a very ugly manner, history repeats itself often.
    ...So is this to get us to accept it...
    Huh? Of course not.

    Poverty is the norm out of which people arise through productivy and trade.

    Earlier the immediate answer was redistribute, the state should take from some and give to others. Ignoring the immorality of redistribution, of that sort, it does not generate wealth, it raises no one out of poverty, in fact it lowers some into poverty without raising anyone out. Look at history:



    Prior to the war on poverty, poverty was in decline in the US and likely would have continued to decline as it has around the world. But in steps the government with a grand idea to create a welfare state, great idea, right, miserable failure that stopped the decline in poverty.


    The point of the OP is the insight wealth is not fixed like a pie to carve up and distribute such that some win and some lose, iow, poverty created, be it the government and some greedy rich guy like Bezos taking more than his share. No, wealth is generated, by productivity and trade. All you need to do is participate.

    Yes, yes, some can't, so you help them. Some lose their job, so you have a safety net to help those back on their feet. Something like Universal Basic Income. I would argue, too, that you remove the tons of red tape regulations preventing people from owning a small business, like regulations requiring million dollar medalions for a taxicab.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shady Slim View Post
    What does that have to do with how native Americans lived for centuries before 1492?


    Geezuz man, the government did not set up land ownership (reservations) pre-Columbian.


    I will say it again, white man was sailing across oceans with their steel forges while entire lands of native populations were squeezing the foreheads of infants between between pieces of wood to appear more "attractive".

    If not for the white man, this land would still be living in the flint-age. You do not need any more proof of that than indigenous tribes in South America today. They had nothing until shown by the white man.

    Did the native Americans consider themselves "wealthy"? I guess so if you have a full belly and a buffalo skin over your head.

    Native Indians were fine the way they were living on the land sans the state.

    I think you suffer the view that stateless, primitive societies lacked something you think we have that makes us better.

    Anyway, so not the topic here, which is the insight poverty is the norm.

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