The End of the Nation-State

[Dr. Who]

To clarify, the pigs in general or those in charge? IMO, there will never be a Utopian society, no matter how much we long for such a thing to happen. Human nature and all that.

The pigs are generally in charge one way or another.

I don't expect that there will ever be Utopia, but we can do a great deal better than we do now. We currently live in the equivalent of an Amway plan which is a pyramidal system that depends upon a glut of poor people being suckered into paying to support the rich.

[Chris]

In Utopia, that could happen. Unfortunately, there will always be a pig who feels "all pigs are equal, but some are more equal than others."

It's that and any given utopia while it looks good on paper never works in reality.

The government is just such a utopia. People tend to like the idea of it, just not the reality.


Instead of changing and perfecting society, why not change yourself, and then a few people around you. Let others do the same. See what emerges bottom up instead of top down. Trust the people, not gradiose ideas of a perfect society.

[Chris]

All cultures have evolved. There has never been a point in history where cultures have not added aspects from interactions from foreigners one way or another. What has changed is the ease at which cultures meet. You no longer have to spend several months in a caravan to bring new ideas, foods, spices, recipes or products to another nation. It now happens in an instant. There is a growth in fusion foods and fusion music. It is moving exponentially as are ideas, politics, and information.

Also, FYI, I don't feel compelled to attend festivals or play at any culture. I have friends from many cultures and I enjoy that diversity, but I don't play dress up or intrude on other people's festivals. I also don't embrace all aspects of other cultures. I find other cultures interesting and I do like to understand them as well as the food and music, but I don't condone anything that involves subjugation or violence. You misconstrue my tolerance and interest in difference with some kind of elitist patronage. I don't fear different cultures or people who don't look like me. I find commonality in humanity and enjoy our inventive differences born of our locations on the planet. However we are affecting one and other at an exponential rate. Is that a bad thing? Not really. We are developing more interesting foods and more interesting music and art through our contact with one and other. Cultures that are static become stale.

And let's remember that evolution does not imply progress, it implies only change, mutations selected for inheritance.

(Also that evolution, while a useful metaphor, operates at the level of genes. No design, no plan, no progress.)

[Chris]

Perhaps the idea of true democracy is that those pigs lose their voice in favor of the whole. We are going through a seriously selfish phase, but it will be followed by a particularly bad phase where people will be disabused of their senses of entitlement. There are tough times ahead that will change the way people think and what they will tolerate.

You just flipflopped form "My hope is for a global society that values its people and sees the success of humanity as more important the success of individuals" to "Perhaps the idea of true democracy is that those pigs lose their voice in favor of the whole."

[Dr. Who]

You just flipflopped form "My hope is for a global society that values its people and sees the success of humanity as more important the success of individuals" to "Perhaps the idea of true democracy is that those pigs lose their voice in favor of the whole."

There is no contradiction there, although I note that the word "than" is missing in the sentence: "My hope is for a global society that values its people and sees the success of humanity as more important than the success of individuals"

[Chris]

There is no contradiction there, although I note that the word "than" is missing in the sentence: "My hope is for a global society that values its people and sees the success of humanity as more important than the success of individuals"

OK, yes, that's more consistent with your desire to perfect society through the government.