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Thread: Axis Victory

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    It was an inexcusable waste of equipment that would have been much better deployed on the defensive. The Germans managed to inflict significantly greater casualties than they took at Kursk but they simply did not have the resources that the Russians possessed. Any chance for a knockout was long gone so, IMO, this was a disastrous campaign that spelled doom from the get go.

    I don't think Hitler wanted anything more than Russian territory for "living space". Had that been obtained I think the war would have been over.
    Lebensraum on that fertile bread basket of the Ukraine. I think he wanted Germany to produce most of its own grains so it could be self sufficient.
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur

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    Quote Originally Posted by kathaariancode View Post
    Lebensraum on that fertile bread basket of the Ukraine. I think he wanted Germany to produce most of its own grains so it could be self sufficient.
    Right. Self-sufficiency is part and parcel of fascist doctrine.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


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    First off, great OP question and thread. I think the German position in the USSR could have been turned into a German victory. I think Germany declaring war on the US was the fatal error. Hitler made many critical errors. I'd say that if he made a few less, then Nazi Germany may have survived.

    If Hitler had not declared war and made diplomatic overtures, he would have put FDR in a very difficult position Public Opinion would have certainly wanted Japan crushed, and the US has a large German population that would not have appreciated FDR declaring war on Germany. Hitler's declaration of war on the US allowed FDR and Churchill to do exactly what they wanted to do. It ensured that Germany would face a two front war unless the USSR was knocked out, which was of course the most difficult feat.

    I've read at some point early on (1941-42) Hitler had many scientists taken off of projects and sent into the front line. This was reversed, but it ensured that many superior weapons were denied to the Wehrmacht until the very end of the war. They may have played a key role in blunting the Allied air offence over Germany.

    Hitler's strategy was flawed. He went for Moscow, then he backed off. He went for the oil fields, then he focused on Stalingrad. If he had simply seized the oil fields in the Caucuses, he could have starved the Red Army of its oil. He could also have laid a trap for a counter-offensive, when the Russians attacked the army group holding the oil fields.

    He could also have avoided war with the US and doubled down on the U-Boat campaign against the UK. This was his best chance to end the threat of a prolonged two front war. With the US tied up in the Pacific, a starving UK could have been persuaded to accept a peace settlement. Churchill may well have been thrown out of office by a hungry nation.
    Last edited by DonGlock26; 11-17-2012 at 11:12 AM.

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    Good points especially about war with US.

    I think Hitler's decision to go after the oil fields in 1942 was the right one and he showed an understanding of economic factors that was absent among the top brass. That said, his decision was based with a longer war in mind; a war that, IMO, Germany could not win.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Good points especially about war with US.

    I think Hitler's decision to go after the oil fields in 1942 was the right one and he showed an understanding of economic factors that was absent among the top brass. That said, his decision was based with a longer war in mind; a war that, IMO, Germany could not win.
    Thanks!

    True, and he got fixated on Stalingrad. They were too wrapped up in taking strong points. Long sieges plagued the German effort IMHO. He should have by passed Stalingrad and taken the oil fields or just went after the political center at Moscow (Of course, the Soviet gov't would have just pulled back east of the Urals).

    I think that after failing to take Moscow in 1941, Germany's best bet was to avoid war with the US, knock the UK out of the war with the U-Boats, and seizing the oil fields from the Soviets. If they had accomplished those three goals, they could have pulled it off-IMHO. Luckily for us they didn't.

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  9. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
    Thanks!

    True, and he got fixated on Stalingrad. They were too wrapped up in taking strong points. Long sieges plagued the German effort IMHO. He should have by passed Stalingrad and taken the oil fields or just went after the political center at Moscow (Of course, the Soviet gov't would have just pulled back east of the Urals).

    I think that after failing to take Moscow in 1941, Germany's best bet was to avoid war with the US, knock the UK out of the war with the U-Boats, and seizing the oil fields from the Soviets. If they had accomplished those three goals, they could have pulled it off-IMHO. Luckily for us they didn't.
    Luckily I only think one of those things is realistic for the Third Reich. Roosevelt was itching to get the US more involved, and the Nazis simply didn't have the resources to out do the British at that time.
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit altum videtur

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    I do think the fall of Moscow would have ended Stalin's career and forced a change in government. Perhaps even the collapse of an organized war effort. It wasn't 1813.
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    What would have happened had Hitler not invaded the Soviet Union at all? Or at least until after it had won in the West.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    What would have happened had Hitler not invaded the Soviet Union at all? Or at least until after it had won in the West.
    Good point and one we have overlooked. What if the UK had been finished off before Barbarossa thus eliminating the potential for a real two front war? That would have give the Soviets much needed time to reorganize...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    What would have happened had Hitler not invaded the Soviet Union at all? Or at least until after it had won in the West.
    IMHO- Stalin would have attacked Germany. He was aggressive and building a powerful army, when Hitler attacked him first. War was inevitable.

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