Catalonia: A Spanish Tiananmen Square?

[Ethereal]

We could compare the breakup of states as divorce, the problem is that the reality of international law is that might makes right if one side's political will is there. Much like if any domestic law isn't actually backed up with (mostly predictable) enforcement, then people will only follow the laws as long as it's convenient to them.
The default of human society is might makes right, that people really should not forget, if you don't have a might above then all the talk of other laws and rights is simply foolish.

That was sort of the point I was making. Western ruling classes talk about "democracy" and "human rights" when it is convenient for them, but are not genuinely committed to those principles. Our western societies are, in reality, despotic oligarchies who give us some small measure of freedoms because they know it makes for better economics and therefore more tax revenues. People need to understand this if genuine democracy is to become a reality.

[Ethereal]

Like the north did in the U.S. Civil War?

Yes, exactly like that.

[Ethereal]

I have a long and well-documented history of supporting secession movements. I'm anxiously awaiting the next Scottish independence vote, which has a much higher likelihood of succeeding now than it did a couple years ago. Catalan independence, too, is a cause I have long supported. If we had an effective Secretary of State (we don't), I think we could pressure the Madrid regime to allow the Catalans to walk.

Americans should do what they did when the IRA was fighting English imperialism, i.e., start private networks of support for their cause. We cannot depend on the state to do the right thing.

[kilgram]

You'll be voting?

No, I am not a registered Catalan (I am from another Spanish region)
However, if I was going to vote I don't know what would be my election.
Moreover, considering that even now I consider my living in Barcelona for something temporal. So, I don't believe I should vote when that is more or less a place that I am passing by.

[Ethereal]

No, I am not a registered Catalan (I am from another Spanish region)
However, if I was going to vote I don't know what would be my election.
Moreover, considering that even now I consider my living in Barcelona for something temporal. So, I don't believe I should vote when that is more or less a place that I am passing by.

Do you support the right of the Catalan people to declare their independence?

[Ethereal]

Sorry, Spain. Catalonia is voting on independence whether you like it or not.

Catalonia represents democracy and human rights. The Spanish central government represents the opposite. It's really as simple as that.

[Ethereal]

Spain sends more police to block Catalonia referendum

The battle between democracy and authoritarianism continues.

[Ethereal]

hear! hear!

[kilgram]

Do you support the right of the Catalan people to declare their independence?

More or less. I don't care. However, I would have liked more negotiations from both sides. There are no "freedom fighters" or authoritarian. Both sides have taken many authoritarian decissions.

However, the most authoritarian side and repressive has been obviously the government of Spain and his incapacity to negotiate anything. And they have generated more confrontation and unrest in Catalonia with their decisions. If until the division was possible to save, now is impossible. The road to the independence may be more unstoppable than ever.

And probably, Spain is broken, the ones that defended strongly the unity of Spain are the ones that have caused the division and the "break of Spain".

[Ethereal]

More or less. I don't care. However, I would have liked more negotiations from both sides. There are no "freedom fighters" or authoritarian. Both sides have taken many authoritarian decissions.

However, the most authoritarian side and repressive has been obviously the government of Spain and his incapacity to negotiate anything. And they have generated more confrontation and unrest in Catalonia with their decisions. If until the division was possible to save, now is impossible. The road to the independence may be more unstoppable than ever.

And probably, Spain is broken, the ones that defended strongly the unity of Spain are the ones that have caused the division and the "break of Spain".

What authoritarian positions have the Catalan people taken?