Fetuses yawn in womb?

[Adelaide]

OK, but why not equal rights?

I guess I phrased my previously response poorly. I view fetuses as human and as lives, but not necessarily as people. They are dependent on the mother for everything biologically, (food, shelter, etc.). Until the child is born, the mother should have the defacto rights about the human inside of her. Until viability, she should have the right to terminate that life, (which, by the way, people in real life can also do with suicide or euthanasia). I would hope that the reasons women terminate their pregnancies would be limited to not being able to provide for the child, health reasons, in cases of rape/incest, or other major issues besides, "I just don't feel like being pregnant".

[Chris]

I guess I phrased my previously response poorly. I view fetuses as human and as lives, but not necessarily as people. They are dependent on the mother for everything biologically, (food, shelter, etc.). Until the child is born, the mother should have the defacto rights about the human inside of her. Until viability, she should have the right to terminate that life, (which, by the way, people in real life can also do with suicide or euthanasia). I would hope that the reasons women terminate their pregnancies would be limited to not being able to provide for the child, health reasons, in cases of rape/incest, or other major issues besides, "I just don't feel like being pregnant".

OK, but that argument takes us back to what I said earlier about dependence: "should we be able to abort anyone dependent, from newborn babes to to physically and mentally handicapped to aging elders, even the growing population dependent on government? Absurd, no?"

I don't see how dependency determines rights.

[Adelaide]

OK, but that argument takes us back to what I said earlier about dependence: "should we be able to abort anyone dependent, from newborn babes to to physically and mentally handicapped to aging elders, even the growing population dependent on government? Absurd, no?"

I don't see how dependency determines rights.

They're not biologically attached to and dependent on the mother. They're not actually inside someone's body, needing to take energy and food and everything else from the mother's body. Big difference. No comparison can be made between pregnancy and other forms of dependency.

[Chris]

They're not biologically attached to and dependent on the mother. They're not actually inside someone's body, needing to take energy and food and everything else from the mother's body. Big difference. No comparison can be made between pregnancy and other forms of dependency.

Yet they are all just forms of dependency. If dependency doesn't entail rights lost in any other case, why just this special case? I understand that's what you believe, which is what I said much earlier about having to resort to belief, but what rational reason justifies it.

[Adelaide]

Yet they are all just forms of dependency. If dependency doesn't entail rights lost in any other case, why just this special case? I understand that's what you believe, which is what I said much earlier about having to resort to belief, but what rational reason justifies it.

You're not understanding - that's okay.

Running with your line of thought... In other forms of dependency there is often a POA or otherwise a guardian who makes decisions for the young, disabled or elderly if they are unable to make their own decisions based on their age or disability or cognitive functioning. They can't elect to kill their dependents, but their dependents also are viable and not in-utero. And actually, in the case of the disabled or elderly they can technically kill them by stopping or preventing life saving measures from being practiced.

Factor in that the dependent in the mother's womb is not viable up to a certain point and is not entitled to the same rights as an actual person... and I see no issue with abortion, and for other women to make their own decisions based on their own beliefs.

I also don't think this is any of the government's business. This should be between the woman and her doctor. I actually like that Canada has absolutely no laws in relation to abortion... technically, you could abort right up into the final weeks but you'd never find a doctor willing to do an abortion after a certain date.

Anyways, I don't feel like debating abortion. I know I'm in the minority here and nothing I say on the subject matters to anyone.

[Chris]

You're not understanding - that's okay.

Running with your line of thought... In other forms of dependency there is often a POA or otherwise a guardian who makes decisions for the young, disabled or elderly if they are unable to make their own decisions based on their age or disability or cognitive functioning. They can't elect to kill their dependents, but their dependents also are viable and not in-utero. And actually, in the case of the disabled or elderly they can technically kill them by stopping or preventing life saving measures from being practiced.

Factor in that the dependent in the mother's womb is not viable up to a certain point and is not entitled to the same rights as an actual person... and I see no issue with abortion, and for other women to make their own decisions based on their own beliefs.

I also don't think this is any of the government's business. This should be between the woman and her doctor. I actually like that Canada has absolutely no laws in relation to abortion... technically, you could abort right up into the final weeks but you'd never find a doctor willing to do an abortion after a certain date.

Anyways, I don't feel like debating abortion. I know I'm in the minority here and nothing I say on the subject matters to anyone.

Yes, you're right, I'm not understanding the distinction, it doesn't seem relevant before the law, the law posited law ought to be based on, declared as "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men...."

I also don't think this is any of the government's business. This should be between the woman and her doctor. I actually like that Canada has absolutely no laws in relation to abortion... technically, you could abort right up into the final weeks but you'd never find a doctor willing to do an abortion after a certain date.

Here I think we agree, though I think this should be up to society and not just woman and doctor, for as I see it someone needs to represent the unborn's rights.



I have enjoyed the exchange, and do respect your position, but you're right, this is a good stopping point. Thanks!

[GrassrootsConservative]

I know and they call them blobs.

It doesn't matter. Liberals could learn that fetuses are aware of everything around them and it would only further fuel their hatred and jealousy. Innocence and purity are despised amongst the lying, thieving, conniving, mob-mentality Liberals of the world.

Liberals think about fetuses being innocent, unborn, a clean slate without immorality, and they absolutely know they must be destroyed. This is the very root of Liberalism.

[Chris]

Topic is the unborn not liberals.

[KC]

Yes, you're right, I'm not understanding the distinction, it doesn't seem relevant before the law, the law posited law ought to be based on, declared as "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men...."

So what about a fetus guarantees it the same sort of rights we'd assign someone outside of the womb?

[Chris]

So what about a fetus guarantees it the same sort of rights we'd assign someone outside of the womb?

It is created, it is living, it is human. What about being in or out the womb makes a difference regarding rights we're all created with as a part of our nature?