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Thread: Catalonia Situation Continues To Worsen

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    Catalonia Situation Continues To Worsen

    It appears that the Catalonia situation continues to deteriorate; with Spanish leadership rejecting a threat by the Catalonian leadership to declare independence.

    The government is calling for the leaders of the secessionist movement to backtrack on their desire to declare independence and if it is rejected, then under Spain's constitution, they would take charge of Catalonia relieving the province no authority to conduct business.

    https://apnews.com/2a7d11c7c8964cd29...dependence-bid

    This appears to be getting really messy and I'm wondering if Spain were to take over running Catalan if it would turn to violence and also the possible impact on the European economy.
    God Bless America, God Bless our Military and God Bless the Police who defended the country against the insurgents on January 6, 2021

    Think 3rd party for 2024 folks. Clean up America.

    Once I tell you that we agree to disagree there will be no more discussion between us in the thread so please don't waste your time continuing to argue your points because I will not respond.

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    If the Spanish government attempts to make good on their threats, the Catalan people would be well within their natural rights to violently resist, just as the founders of this country did when resisting the depredations of the British government. In the event that happens, Americans should support the independence efforts the Catalan people, much the same way they supported the struggle of Irish republicans against British imperialism.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Doubt there are the equal footings for a civil war. Don't think it will come to that but who knows?

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    Exclamation

    Granny says dey gonna end up with a revolution on dey's hands...

    Spain Takes Control of Catalonia, Pushing a Crisis Into Higher Gear
    October 21, 2017 - Carles Puigdemont woke up this Saturday morning as president of Catalonia, but by lunchtime, he was out of a job. For the first time in its nearly 40 years of democracy, Spain has acted upon Article 155, the provision in its constitution that permits it to revoke powers from autonomous regions during times of crisis. And as Puigdemont knows better than anyone, Catalonia is nothing if not a crisis.
    Three weeks after a referendum on secession that was banned by the Spanish constitution, but nonetheless brought more than 2 million to the polls to vote, Catalonia’s — and Spain’s — moment of truth has arrived. Although those who turned out to cast ballots (only 43% of eligible voters) resoundingly supported independence, Catalans today saw their self-determination dramatically diminished, rather than increased. Once the measures that Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy proposed this morning are approved by the senate, the region will be under direct Spanish rule. Not that Rajoy put it like that exactly. “We are not suspending the autonomy or the self-government of Catalonia,” he said at a press conference after a cabinet meeting in which the measures were hammered out. “Rather, we are asking the Senate for the cessation [in power] of those persons who have put [Catalonia] outside the law.”

    Those persons include Puigdemont, the vice president and the rest of his cabinet. In their places, Spanish ministries will assume their responsibilities until elections can be held sometime in the next six months — which, to many Catalans, sounds exactly like the suspension of their autonomy. “They’re doing away with the government, they’re rescinding nearly all of its powers. That’s a textbook suspension of autonomy,” says Ferran Requejo, professor of political science at Barcelona’s Pompeu Fabra University. “It’s a coup d’etat from within.”

    Supporters of the prime minister’s decision, however, point out that Mr. Puigdemont refused requests that he repeal the independence bid, which is clearly illegal under the Spanish constitution, and that now he is facing the consequences of that refusal. “In the past, whenever there were conflicts with the state over autonomy, Catalonia at least maintained what it had; it might gain more but it didn’t lose anything,” says José Ignacio Torreblanca, opinion editor of the newspaper El País. “That’s not necessarily the case anymore.”

    Although the Spanish Senate must first approve the measures Rajoy proposed, two other parties, including the main opposition party, have expressed their support for the prime minister’s use of Article 155, and no obstruction is expected when the upper house convenes on Friday. Yet even with that resounding determination, the game of cat and mouse that has occupied the Spanish and Catalan governments is hardly over. On Thursday, Puigdemont suggested in a letter to the prime minister that although the Catalan parliament had not declared independence yet, it may well do so were Article 155 invoked. As of this writing, he has not divulged what his next move will be, but the Spanish attorney general confirmed this morning that should Puigdemont go ahead with the declaration, he would be charged with rebellion — a graver crime than sedition and one punishable by 30 years in prison.

    Whatever happens next, Catalonia’s options are diminishing. Previously, some factions within the Catalan government were floating the idea that Puigdemont might call elections on his own, or form a new “concentrated” government that could project an image of unity as it amplifies its requests for dialogue. But if he is stripped of office, he will not be able to do either of those things. The only thing that is for certain at this point is that Puigdemont and his cabinet will attend a rally Saturday afternoon to protest the imprisonment earlier this week of two leaders of the independence movement for sedition. If the caceroladas — the spontaneous banging of pots in protest — that broke out immediately following Rajoy’s speech are any indication, they will have plenty of support.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/spain-tak...140320072.html
    See also:

    Spain Catalonia: Foreign minister denies 'coup' by Madrid
    Sun, 22 Oct 2017 - The foreign minister tells the BBC the government is only acting in line with the constitution.
    The Catalan government, led by President Carles Puigdemont, points to the majority Yes vote in a referendum on independence it held on 1 October despite a ban by Spain's Constitutional Court. Of the 43% of Catalans said to have taken part, 90% voted in favour of independence, it said. Unionist parties who won about 40% of the vote at the 2015 Catalan elections boycotted the ballot and many anti-independence supporters stayed away, arguing it was not valid.

    What is the Spanish government's position?

    On Saturday, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy announced plans to sack Catalonia's regional government and curtail some of the freedoms of its parliament. Reports suggest the central authorities will also seek to take control of Catalonia's local police force and its public broadcaster, TV3. "If there is a coup d'état, this is one followed by Mr Puigdemont and his government," Mr Dastis told The Andrew Marr Show. "What we are doing is following strictly the provision of our constitution," he said, describing it as a "carbon copy of the German constitution". "If you look at the rest of democracies and certainly partners in the European Union, they wouldn't accept a decision as such to be taken by a part of the country." He also argued that "many" images of police violence against protesters on referendum day were fake.


    Anxious independence supporters listened to Carles Puigdemont's speech on their smartphones in Barcelona

    The government itself apologised to injured demonstrators days after the vote, as a result of which 1,066 people required medical attention, according to the Catalan health department. The ferocity of the police response was reported at the time by the BBC's Tom Burridge.

    What exactly is a 'coup d'état'?

    The French term literally means a "blow against the state" and refers to the sudden, usually violent, overthrow of a country's government. Catalan nationalists regard their region as a nation and state in its own right, a definition Spain does not accept. Spain last saw a coup attempt on 23 February 1981 when soldiers and police stormed parliament, firing guns and shouting orders. The rebellion was suppressed but came as a startling reminder of the country's recent military dictatorship (1939-75) under Gen Francisco Franco. President Puigdemont has described the move to impose direct rule as the worst attack on Catalonia's institutions since Franco, when the region lost its autonomy.

    What do the Spanish media say?

    "Return to the past" is how Catalonia's Catalan-language, pro-independence El Punt Avui sums up Saturday's developments on its front page. In an opinion piece, Xevi Xirgo argues that Madrid is mounting a "coup d'état" to submit Catalonia to central rule in a way not seen since the 18th Century. In an editorial in El Periódico, Spain's fifth-biggest newspaper which publishes both in Spanish and Catalan, Enric Hernàndez argues that Madrid responded in kind to "the aggression of the independence camp", which ignored Spanish law to hold a "sham referendum".


    A pro-independence poster in Barcelona imagines Franco (left) kissing Rajoy

    Hernàndez calls on Mr Puigdemont to agree to Mr Rajoy's call for early regional elections as the best way out of the crisis or else face a "social revolt with unforeseeable consequences". Meanwhile El País, Spain's biggest paper, a left-of-centre daily, endorses the government in an editorial entitled "The democratic state responds" and declares that Mr Rajoy is acting to "restore constitutional legality in Catalonia". "Democracy not only has the right to defend itself but a duty to do so," it says.

    What happens next?

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    A lot of Catalonians don't support independence.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Quote Originally Posted by gamewell45 View Post
    It appears that the Catalonia situation continues to deteriorate; with Spanish leadership rejecting a threat by the Catalonian leadership to declare independence.

    The government is calling for the leaders of the secessionist movement to backtrack on their desire to declare independence and if it is rejected, then under Spain's constitution, they would take charge of Catalonia relieving the province no authority to conduct business.

    https://apnews.com/2a7d11c7c8964cd29...dependence-bid

    This appears to be getting really messy and I'm wondering if Spain were to take over running Catalan if it would turn to violence and also the possible impact on the European economy.

    Well if our country is any example. Federal management is poorer and less effective than state/provincial management. So at least there would be that economic impact. I think outside players and their willingness to accept the "new country" will be a factor as to where they go from here.

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    Question

    Crunch time comin'...

    Showdown Between Spain and Catalonia Headed to Crunch
    Oct. 26, 2017, Catalan president rules out calling snap regional election as standoff between Spain and secessionist-minded autonomous region heads to critical juncture
    The standoff between Spain and Catalonia over the wealthy region's bid to secede went down to the wire Thursday, as the Spanish government prepared to strip away Catalan regional powers after its separatist leader scrapped hopes of early elections that might have ended the country's worst political crisis in decades. After weeks of mounting antagonism, Catalan officials had initially indicated regional President Carles Puigdemont was preparing to announce a snap election for December — a vote that had been the Spanish government's idea as a way of ending the deadlock. But as news of Puigdemont's plan spread, angry student demonstrators waving separatist flags and calling him a traitor marched to the gates of the government palace in Barcelona. Even some of Puigdemont's political allies called him a coward for not unilaterally declaring independence in the face of Spain's resistance.

    Then, in a hastily called address, Puigdemont said he had decided not to call a vote because the Spanish government did not provide enough assurance that it would suspend what he termed its "abusive" measures to assume control of Catalonia. "There is no guarantee that would justify the holding of elections," he said. The crunch will come Friday when the Spanish Senate in Madrid gives the go ahead to Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy's plan to use Article 155 of the country's constitution to remove or limit self-rule in Catalonia. It would be an unprecedented intervention by the central government in the affairs of one of the country's 17 autonomous regions and would likely fan the flames of Catalan revolt. "The application of Article 155 represents an aggression ... without precedent," Lluis Corominas, spokesman for Puigdemont's Democratic Party of Catalonia, told Catalan lawmakers. "Tomorrow what we will propose is that our answer to Article 155 is going forward with the mandate of the people of Catalonia."

    He was referring to the sentiment among the Catalan pro-independence coalition that it has a mandate to secede unilaterally since declaring a landslide victory in a banned independence referendum earlier this month. Separatist lawmakers were set to negotiate how to make their declaration of independence during a meeting of the regional parliament on Friday, an official with the ruling coalition who asked not to be named because of the sensitivity of the issue, told The Associated Press. The ruling coalition has a reputation, however, for squabbling over how to proceed on the contentious issue. At the same time, not all Catalans are keen on breaking away from Spain, with polls showing they are roughly evenly split. And while those who voted in the Oct. 1 independence referendum were overwhelmingly in favor, less than half of eligible voters went to the polls in a vote that had been outlawed by Spain's Constitutional Court and was marred by police violence trying to stop it.

    In the weeks since the Oct. 1 vote, more than 1,500 businesses have moved their official headquarters out of Catalonia to ensure they could continue operating under European Union laws if Catalonia secedes. During Thursday's protest in Barcelona, not all the demonstrators were in favor of independence. Martina Gallego, 17, said that while she didn't want Catalonia to secede, she also objected strongly to how the Spanish government is treating the region. "They are taking all our rights of autonomy away," she said. "I'm not in favor of independence, but I don't think this is right." Watching the protest unfold from afar, 31 year-old Barcelona resident Emilio Verdies, lamented what he called too much complaint and too little dialogue. "Both governments, from Catalonia and Spain, should meet and try to fix the current situation," he said, adding that talks should center on Catalans' "being able to decide our future."

    'MORE

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    Red face

    Catalan President may face arrest as Madrid imposes measures stripping the region of its autonomy...

    Catalonia independence: Spain to take control of Catalan institutions
    Mon, 30 Oct 2017 - The Catalan leader may face arrest as Madrid imposes measures stripping the region of its autonomy.
    Spain is set to put in place measures to take direct control of Catalonia in response to the region's declaration of independence last week. On Friday, Madrid stripped Catalonia of its autonomy and removed Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont from office. The temporary move will see as many as 150 of the region's ministers replaced. Some have vowed to continue to work. Mr Puigdemont and other Catalan officials may face criminal charges, a move likely to lead to huge protests.


    What happens next?


    Spain's central government is to take control of Catalan institutions with Spanish officials expected to be put in place in the region's ministries on Monday. Mr Puigdemont and his vice-president Oriol Junqueras have said they do not accept the move by Madrid, adding that they could only be removed from power by the citizens of Catalonia. If Mr Puigdemont and others refuse to step aside, they face possible arrest. Catalonia's regional police force, known as Mossos, whose chief was dismissed last week, are deployed in Sant Jaume square, near the government palace in the centre of Barcelona.



    Mr Puigdemont has urged "democratic opposition" to direct rule from Madrid


    Spain's Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis has said he expects the officers to "act professionally". Spain's chief prosecutor has also been preparing criminal charges against any officials considered to have acted against Spanish law in declaring independence following a referendum deemed illegal under the Spanish constitution. Meanwhile, Madrid has called for fresh regional elections on 21 December. Mr Puigdemont could run in new elections, according to Mr Dastis, but only if the sacked Catalan leader has not been jailed.


    What about Catalonia's autonomy?


    On Sunday, Mr Dastis told Sky News: "We are not taking autonomy away from Catalonia. We are just re-establishing it, in fact." He added: "Reality is already sinking in, will continue sinking in and they will realise that they cannot do something without the authority of law and they will be usurping authority." Meanwhile, Interior Minister Juan Ignacio Zoido has written to all police officers in Catalonia asking for their loyalty as a "new era" begins in the region. He reminded members of the regional police, who are now under direct control from Madrid, of their duty to obey orders and to guarantee "the rights and liberties of all". Senior police officers have told the BBC that they have already complied with an order to remove framed photographs of Mr Puigdemont from police stations across the region.


    What is the local press saying?

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    Red face

    Spanish takeover goes without resistance...

    Spain met with little resistance, takes control of Catalonia
    30 Oct.`17 - As Spain took control of the Catalan government on Monday, it was met with little resistance from ousted officials.
    Spain’s Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s strategy against Catalan rebels bore results as his officials took over the once autonomous regional government, including the police, without any significant protest. Rajoy, who responded to a declaration of independence by taking over the regional government maintained the upper hand and proved successful in imposing direct rule in Catalonia. A day after hundreds of thousands of Catalans flooded the center of Barcelona to protest against independence, on Monday, most public sector workers such as teachers, firefighters and the police started worked as normal. Despite calls for disobedience, there was no sign of widespread absenteeism. As normality returned to Catalonia, markets jumped too. Spanish stocks and bonds rose on signs that normality is returning to the country’s biggest regional economy.


    Meanwhile, on Monday, Spain’s state prosecutor, Attorney-General Jose Manuel Maza, was seeking charges of rebellion and sedition, as well as fraud and misuse of funds, to be brought against ousted president Carles Puigdemont, who reportedly left for Brussels. According to a report in La Sexta television, Puigdemont is planning to ask for asylum in Belgium and his party did not confirm his whereabouts. If convicted of rebellion, Puigdemont could serve up to 30 years in jail. He is also facing charges of sedition and misuse of funds. However, Monday’s step is just the start and the justice system moves slowly. Lluis Orriols, a political scientist at Carlos III University in Madrid said, “It looks like Rajoy has played the short-term game here in a very clever way. Taking control of the government and calling elections for December makes it very hard for the independence movement to respond.”

    The story so far

    Since Puigdemont's separatist government organized the October 1 referendum that Madrid declared illegal and unconstitutional, Spain has been gripped by a constitutional crisis in defiance of a ruling by the Constitutional Court. According to the Catalan government, of the 43 percent of potential voters who participated, 90 percent were in favour of independence. Puigdemont missed his first opportunity to declare a republic in the aftermath of the illegal referendum and stepped back from the brink, calling for dialogue with Madrid. His move prompted outrage among his hardline supporters without winning any concessions from the central government. On Friday, Puigdemont passed responsibility to the parliament, which declared a republic after unionist lawmakers walked out. After the regional parliament declared independence, Madrid responding by declaring the move illegal. Soon after, Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy announced the dissolution of the regional parliament and the removal of Puigdemont as Catalan leader.

    Rajoy called for a regional election scheduled to be held on December 21 and so far, the two main separatist parties, who formed a joint pro-independence platform in 2015, have said they plan to run in the election. Puigdemont meanwhile has urged "democratic opposition" to direct rule from Madrid, which has said it would welcome his participation in the election. La Vanguardia reported that Puigdemont is set to make a public statement from Brussels later in the day. According to a latest Sigma Dos poll for El Mundo, support for independence may be declining. The poll showed that while 76 percent of Catalans said they want an official referendum, just 34 percent said they were in favor of breaking away from Spain. The survey was conducted between October 23 and October 26 - before the regional parliament declared independence last Friday. Meanwhile, a Metroscopia poll published by El Pais put that number at 29 percent. This compared to 41.1 percent in July, according to an official survey carried out by the Catalan government.

    http://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/2...l-of-catalonia

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    So much for that
    my junk is ugly

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