Anti-American?

[Mini Me]

From the left it comes as, surprisingly, love it or leave it. You're against the government, against taxes, against anything the government does, you're told you're free to leave. Sometimes that's couhced in the myth of a social contract.

ars, and the GOP ran with it!
And there is a social contract!It is the RIGHT that came up with the "love it or leave it"!

That started during the NIXON ye

[Crepitus]

Partisans on both sides have often accused me of being "anti-American". Almost without exception, this accusation is leveled in response to my criticisms of the US government. These false accusations serve two purposes: (1) It allows the accuser to avoid making a rational argument and (2) it gives the accuser the appearance of patriotism. Yet it doesn't require much intelligence to see that such accusations are wholly bankrupt, since "America" as a concept encompasses far more than just the US government. Put simply, a criticism of the PART is not a condemnation of the WHOLE. One can criticize the US government while still loving America. Indeed, my harsh criticisms of the US government are inspired by my deep love of the country. Naturally, I do not expect the truth to penetrate the mind of the sort of person who is inclined towards such churlish accusations, but I would hope that the reasonable people on this forum (the few that exist) would stand together in opposition to such tactics.

I don't think you are anti-American. I think we have different opinions of America's best path forward.

[Crepitus]

Just for the record I don't think anyone here is anti-American.

[Chris]

ars, and the GOP ran with it!
And there is a social contract!It is the RIGHT that came up with the "love it or leave it"!

That started during the NIXON ye

That's the irony of the left using phrases the right came up with in the 80s.

No one seems to know more than 15 minutes of history anymore.

[Standing Wolf]

There's being called "anti-American"...and then there's the way some want to make it into a "Your side calls my side 'anti-American' more than my side calls your side 'anti-American'" argument. C'mon, guys - if anything that's an even more pointless (not to mention futile) discussion.

And while being told that you should leave the country isn't exactly being called 'anti-American', it's close enough...as are the suggestion that those having your opinion should be rounded up and imprisoned (or worse) and being told that people who think like you do "hate America and want to see it destroyed".

[Ethereal]

The fact is that "America" as a concept has no consistent or coherent understanding. So one individual's idea of "anti-American" is another individual's idea of "pro-American". This lack of consensus is one of the main reasons why I believe America should be confederated instead of united. But that's another issue entirely.

[Chris]

The fact is that "America" as a concept has no consistent or coherent understanding. So one individual's idea of "anti-American" is another individual's idea of "pro-American". This lack of consensus is one of the main reasons why I believe America should be confederated instead of united. But that's another issue entirely.

And those confederations confederated into communities each with its own autonomous government. Sort of like the bottom-up movement going on in Rojava.

[Standing Wolf]

The fact is that "America" as a concept has no consistent or coherent understanding. So one individual's idea of "anti-American" is another individual's idea of "pro-American".

I don't view it as being quite as subjective as that, but there is certainly room for honest discussion. The greatest danger lies not so much in one individual or one side in a discussion of a particular subject being labeled 'anti-American' as in an entire ideology as a whole being so condemned. The former is relatively easy to analyze and either confirm or dismiss, whereas the latter is not so readily addressed.

[Ethereal]

I don't view it as being quite as subjective as that...

Why not?

[Common Sense]

Normally I would agree with you, but given the anti-Russian sentiment prevailing among many on the left, they've been just as eager to make accusations of disloyalty and anti-Americanism towards anyone who defends Trump and/or Russia from their preferred narrative. This is especially ironic since it is the exact same kind of behavior that Republicans engaged in during the Iraq war, behavior that Democrats resented.

I agree that both sides have engaged it that rhetoric. However in my opinion, the definition of what constitutes an "anti American" for many on the right is far more broad. Some on the right see cultural changes or traditions brought by immigrants as anti American. I think it has a lot to do with a far more rigid set of values and a dislike of ambiguity and change. I mean, they are conservative.

The left on the other hand is far more inclusive. They wont label someone as being anti American because their cultural values don't resemble their own. Liberals also tend to be less nationalistic.

When it comes to Russia, their is hysteria on the left, but there is also the fact that Russia has indeed influenced American politics with a dedicated campaign to divide and spread propaganda. Much of it was so effective due to this lack of tolerance from the right. The majority of their propaganda was targeting the right and to an extent it has worked.