Anti-American?

[Standing Wolf]

Why not?

While I agree with your statement that "one individual's idea of 'anti-American' is another individual's idea of 'pro-American', the fact of the matter is that, in a lot of cases, one of those individuals can be proven to be wrong with relative ease.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

I think it's fair to say that, yes, there are controversies and disagreements where each side, however radically divergent one from the other, could probably make a good and reasonable case that their view is not, in fact, 'un-American' - scenarios, in other words, where neither side could justify applying that label to the other. Not all situations are that morally ambiguous - many are pretty straightforward.

[Chris]

While I agree with your statement that "one individual's idea of 'anti-American' is another individual's idea of 'pro-American', the fact of the matter is that, in a lot of cases, one of those individuals can be proven to be wrong with relative ease.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

I think it's fair to say that, yes, there are controversies and disagreements where each side, however radically divergent one from the other, could probably make a good and reasonable case that their view is not, in fact, 'un-American' - scenarios, in other words, where neither side could justify applying that label to the other. Not all situations are that morally ambiguous - many are pretty straightforward.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

It derives from English Common Law. It wasn't really upheld via incorporation on the states until Miranda v. Arizona 1966. --Is being American really abiding by the laws of the government, or is it more standing up or the people even against the government? "It is not always the same thing to be a good man and a good citizen." Aristotle

[Ethereal]

While I agree with your statement that "one individual's idea of 'anti-American' is another individual's idea of 'pro-American', the fact of the matter is that, in a lot of cases, one of those individuals can be proven to be wrong with relative ease.

Take, as an example, the Constitutional protection against compulsory self-incrimination. It's in the Constitution, it's woven into the fabric of all of our other laws, and it has been upheld countless times in courts at all levels and jurisdictions. I don't know how anyone could reasonably argue that a proposal that would violate that legal bulwark and tradition is not 'un-American'.

I think it's fair to say that, yes, there are controversies and disagreements where each side, however radically divergent one from the other, could probably make a good and reasonable case that their view is not, in fact, 'un-American' - scenarios, in other words, where neither side could justify applying that label to the other. Not all situations are that morally ambiguous - many are pretty straightforward.

In order to argue that a particular viewpoint is not, in fact, un-American, there would have to be an objective definition of what it means to be "American". Thus far, I am not aware of any such definition.

[barb012]

All Americans should hold our government to a higher level and expect them to not become corrupt but this is not the reality. A person should not be viewed anti-american because they see that our government is corrupt. To truly love your country, the people need to unite to find solutions to correct this behavior. This is an incredible challenge in today's environment where no one seems to have any ideas when there is so many obstacles in the way to be heard.

Anyone that says you are anti-american seems to have no problem with a corrupt government and this thinking is insane.

[Standing Wolf]

In order to argue that a particular viewpoint is not, in fact, un-American, there would have to be an objective definition of what it means to be "American". Thus far, I am not aware of any such definition.

I'll confess it is complicated. One can focus on America's history, of course, and say that to be "American" means to believe in Manifest Destiny, American Exceptionalism, and the U.S. having its way at any cost to others; or one can say that being "American" means to adhere to all of those legal, moral and ethical principles and constraints that we have always given lip service to, while not always living up to them. Given a choice, I'd prefer to go with the latter - the aspirational, rather than the historical view.

When I say that something is "un-American", I'm not suggesting that it's something "we" have never done - only that it's something that, in our best and most positive view of ourselves as a People, we wouldn't do.

I also believe that it's easier, in most cases, to make valid, defensible judgments about what is "American" or "un-American" when focusing on single issues, rather than attempting to do something as ambitious (and ultimately impossible) as defining what it is to be "American" in all situations.

[Chris]

All Americans should hold our government to a higher level and expect them to not become corrupt but this is not the reality. A person should not be viewed anti-american because they see that our government is corrupt. To truly love your country, the people need to unite to find solutions to correct this behavior. This is an incredible challenge in today's environment where no one seems to have any ideas when there is so many obstacles in the way to be heard.

Anyone that says you are anti-american seems to have no problem with a corrupt government and this thinking is insane.

Agree. But. It seems to me that the democracy is so big and so centrally planned, and so costly to really get involved, and the media so focused on national politics that most people become isolated, abstracted out of it all that it's rational to pay more attention to your own life and those around you and just step away from politics or involvement in it. Involvement in politics requires, I think, a ground up approach, somethink like what you see in Rojava today.

[barb012]

Agree. But. It seems to me that the democracy is so big and so centrally planned, and so costly to really get involved, and the media so focused on national politics that most people become isolated, abstracted out of it all that it's rational to pay more attention to your own life and those around you and just step away from politics or involvement in it. Involvement in politics requires, I think, a ground up approach, somethink like what you see in Rojava today.

I do agree with you that most people have enough problems with their own personal lives so there is no time to address the problems with our government. Even if we could, we do not have the tools or the financial resources to begin to address this issue. The reality of being helpless to do anything is we all have to witness to the eventual collapse of America. A government that has no higher authority to keep them in check that prevents further corruption from destroying their society will fail as it has proven in history with every fallen empire.

A fallen empire did not occur in a short period of time. Several generations lived and died during its existence which is why we as citizens have no sense of urgency to attempt to correct it.