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Thread: Trickle Down, Up, and Out

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    Trish's Avatar Advisor
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Value is subjective. Therefore to know the market you need to know each person's valuations, as they change in the face of a dynamic economic environment. Even collecting that much information constantly is practically and theoretically impossible. Instead government expert guess and apply theories based on models. Say the economy takes a downturn. It makes sense then to slow investment to avoid malinvestment, you know, investing in some that might well fail. What's the government do? It lowers interest rates as incentive for people to borrow and invest. And sure anough most of it is malinvested. And a downturn becomes a Great Recession or worse, Depression. And as the market self-corrects and comes back, what does the government do but raise interest rates and in effect slow investment and recovery. It's out of tough with what real businessmen do and decide each day.

    If the government was so good at managing the economy how come it's $20T in debt with virtually nothing to show for it?
    1) Yes, value is subjective but we also have common values. I think part of the problem is our politicians have been very successful in creating this narrative that frames some of those common values as none of the government's business. Infrastructure is one. We all benefit from infrastructure but we only seem to invest large amounts of tax payer money into it in response to hurricanes or other disasters. Education is another. It behooves us to educate our children but the politicians don't want people making educated decisions.

    2) I would say there are a variety of reasons why the government hasn't been capable but the few that come to mind are opposing objectives; not understanding how economics work; and greed.

    I admit that I am not well versed in economic theories and you probably are much more knowledgeable.
    I'm selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can't handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don't deserve me at my best.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trish View Post
    1) Yes, value is subjective but we also have common values. I think part of the problem is our politicians have been very successful in creating this narrative that frames some of those common values as none of the government's business. Infrastructure is one. We all benefit from infrastructure but we only seem to invest large amounts of tax payer money into it in response to hurricanes or other disasters. Education is another. It behooves us to educate our children but the politicians don't want people making educated decisions.

    2) I would say there are a variety of reasons why the government hasn't been capable but the few that come to mind are opposing objectives; not understanding how economics work; and greed.

    I admit that I am not well versed in economic theories and you probably are much more knowledgeable.


    1) How we value things is different than the values we have. When I say value is subjective I mean that in any exchange of goods and services each party subjectively evaluates both what they give and what they get such that they see gain in it. I'm not sure that's determined by values. Perhaps some.

    2) There are all those reasons but it's also what's known as the problem of knowledge in society. It's just not possible to know all the valuations people make throughout the day, and there are millions of people doing it, each subjectively. You can't collect it let alone compute it. The Societ Union tried and failed. It's why socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried. Cuba, N Korea, Venezuela....


    You're doing fine, forcing me to explain some of Austrian Economics.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Trickle up or trickle down, they’re just phrases, aren’t they. You either let people keep the profits of their labour, or you try to equalise society by forcing them to share it. The latter has never worked and the former produced welfare, which was fine, until that too became an entitlement and we’re back to trying to produce equality. It’s nothing to do with trickling up or down, neither has ever produced an equal share and that’s because the very system that enables wealth creation – capitalism – was never designed to produce equality.
    It’s why ‘spread the wealth around’ never works. The poor stay poor (always) and the ones funding it become poorer themselves.








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    Quote Originally Posted by Refugee View Post
    Trickle up or trickle down, they’re just phrases, aren’t they. You either let people keep the profits of their labour, or you try to equalise society by forcing them to share it. The latter has never worked and the former produced welfare, which was fine, until that too became an entitlement and we’re back to trying to produce equality. It’s nothing to do with trickling up or down, neither has ever produced an equal share and that’s because the very system that enables wealth creation – capitalism – was never designed to produce equality.
    It’s why ‘spread the wealth around’ never works. The poor stay poor (always) and the ones funding it become poorer themselves.
    They're political pretenses for economic theories is the way I'd put them, borrowed from Keynes.


    You either let people keep the profits of their labour, or you try to equalise society by forcing them to share it. The latter has never worked and the former produced welfare, which was fine, until that too became an entitlement and we’re back to trying to produce equality.
    The latter also produce welfare so it doubly didn't work.

    We should try letting people keep their wealth to do with as they please instead of the government centrally planning and choosing for them...for us.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    None of these economic theories have worked though and that’s because they try to create a perfect system. Equality is simply a belief, a wish, it can never happen and so the more economists and politicians try to engineer a system where all are winners, the more losers it produces. You can see it happening all around the west - the more you try to spread wealth round, the more poverty it’s producing. All this will carry on until people themselves accept that poverty is an individual matter and having as much as the next person isn’t a natural right and poverty isn’t something the government is responsible for.









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    Quote Originally Posted by Refugee View Post
    None of these economic theories have worked though and that’s because they try to create a perfect system. Equality is simply a belief, a wish, it can never happen and so the more economists and politicians try to engineer a system where all are winners, the more losers it produces. You can see it happening all around the west - the more you try to spread wealth round, the more poverty it’s producing. All this will carry on until people themselves accept that poverty is an individual matter and having as much as the next person isn’t a natural right and poverty isn’t something the government is responsible for.
    A perfect system based on a general mechical model. If you can turn a car you can tune the economy it's thought. But, right, I agree, you can't.

    I beldieve the Chinese, who gained much when first adopting state-capitalism, are now seeing the ill-gains of central planning.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    1) How we value things is different than the values we have. When I say value is subjective I mean that in any exchange of goods and services each party subjectively evaluates both what they give and what they get such that they see gain in it. I'm not sure that's determined by values. Perhaps some.

    2) There are all those reasons but it's also what's known as the problem of knowledge in society. It's just not possible to know all the valuations people make throughout the day, and there are millions of people doing it, each subjectively. You can't collect it let alone compute it. The Societ Union tried and failed. It's why socialism has failed everywhere it's been tried. Cuba, N Korea, Venezuela....


    You're doing fine, forcing me to explain some of Austrian Economics.
    Please don't! The Austrian school is set up to further the benefit of the corporatocracy, at the expense of the people!Ditto, Chicago school, George Mason school. All KOCH BROS. controlled!
    "When fascism comes to America, it will come wrapped in the flag, and waving a cross"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
    Please don't! The Austrian school is set up to further the benefit of the corporatocracy, at the expense of the people!Ditto, Chicago school, George Mason school. All KOCH BROS. controlled!
    IOW, if it's not neoliberal economics promoting big government central planning that involves corrupt collusion with big business, then don't talk about it.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    The major problem is the system itself, when the most of the wealth of this country and the rest of the world is concentrated in the hands of a small group of people in the entire population, there is not much left to spread it around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barb012 View Post
    The major problem is the system itself, when the most of the wealth of this country and the rest of the world is concentrated in the hands of a small group of people in the entire population, there is not much left to spread it around.
    Capital is not fixed.

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