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Thread: The essence of the facts

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    Jesus is a figure who is loved and revered by billions of people the world over. Yet there is so much confusion surrounding the status of this colossal personality. Muslims and Christians both hold Jesus in high regard but view him in very different ways.

    The questions raised in this article aim to get to the heart of the issues surrounding Jesus: Is Jesus God? Or was he sent by God? Who was the real historical Jesus?

    Some ambiguous verses of the Bible can be applied erroneously to show that Jesus is in some way divine. But if we look at the clear, direct verses of the Bible, we see again and again that Jesus is being referred to as an extraordinary human being and nothing more. What emerges, when we consider the historical and logical facts about Jesus’ life, is conclusive proof not only that Jesus cannot be God, but that he never claimed to be either.

    What follows are five lines of reasoning which clarify this subject for us through the Bible itself and thereby allow us to discover the real Jesus.
    1. Jesus Never Calls Himself God

    The Bible (in spite of being changed and adulterated over time) contains many verses in which Jesus speaks of God as a separate person to himself. Here are just a few of them:

    When a man addressed Jesus as “Good Teacher”, he replied “Why do you call me good? No one is good except the one God.’’ [Mark 10:18]

    In another instance he says: “I can’t do anything by myself. Whatever I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just. I don’t seek my own will but the will of the one who sent me.” [John 5:30]

    Jesus speaks of God as a separate being to himself: I’m going up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God. [John 20:17]
    In this verse he affirms that he was sent by God: This is eternal life: to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent. [John 17:3]

    If Jesus was God he would have told people to worship him, but he did the opposite and disapproved anyone worshipping him: And in vain they worship Me [Matthew 15:9]

    If Jesus claimed to be God than there should be hundreds of verses in the Bible which would have mentioned it. But there is not a single verse in the entire Bible in which Jesus says I am God, worship me.
    2. Jesus as Son and Lord?

    Jesus is sometimes referred to as ‘Lord’ in the Bible and at other times as ‘Son of God’. God is called the ‘Father’, so putting these names together it could be claimed that Jesus is the son of God. But if we look at each of these titles in context we will find that they are symbolic and not to be taken literally.

    ‘Son of God’ is a term used in ancient Hebrew for a righteous person. God calls Israel his ‘son’: This is what the LORD says: Israel is my oldest son.[Exodus 4:22]. Also, David is called the ‘Son of God’: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.’ [Psalm 2:7]. In fact anyone who is righteous is referred to as God’s ‘son’: All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons and daughters. [Romans 8:14].

    In the same way, when the word ‘Father’ is used to refer to God it shouldn’t be taken literally. Instead it’s a way of saying God is the creator, sustainer, cherisher etc. There are many verses for us to understand this symbolic meaning of the word ‘Father’, for example: one God and Father of all. [Ephesians 4:6].

    Jesus is sometimes called ‘Lord’ by the disciples. ‘Lord’ is a term used for God and also for people who are held in high esteem. There are many examples of the word ‘Lord’ being used for people in the Bible: So they (Joseph’s brothers) went up to Joseph’s steward and spoke to him at the entrance to the house. “We beg your pardon, our lord,” they said. [Genesis 43:19-20]. Also, in other parts of the Bible, Jesus is even called a ‘servant’ of God by the disciples: the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. [Acts 3:13]. This clearly shows that when ‘Lord’ is used to refer to Jesus, it is a title of respect not of divinity.
    3. The Nature of Jesus

    The nature of Jesus was totally different to that of God. There are many parts of the Bible that highlight this difference in nature:

    God is All-Knowing but Jesus by his own admission was not All-Knowing. This can be seen in the following passage when Jesus says “But nobody knows when that day or hour will come, not the heavenly angels and not the Son. Only the Father knows.” [Matthew 24:36]

    God is independent and he doesn’t need sleep, food or water. Jesus however ate, drank, slept and depended on God: As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father. [John 6:57]. Another sign of Jesus’ dependence on God is that he prayed to God: Going a little farther, he (Jesus) fell with his face to the ground and prayed [Matthew 26:39]. This shows that Jesus himself sought help from God. God, being the one who answers prayers does not need to pray to anyone. Also, Jesus said: I am going to the Father, because the Father is greater than me. [John 14:28].

    The Bible is clear that God is unseen and is not a man: for no one may see me and live. [Exodus 33:20], God is not a man [Numbers 23:19]. Jesus on the other hand was a man who was seen by thousands of people, so he could not be God. Furthermore, the Bible makes it clear that God is too great to be inside his creation: But how could God possibly live on earth with people? If heaven, even the highest heaven, can’t contain you [2 Chronicles 6:18]. According to this verse Jesus cannot be God living on the earth.

    Also the Bible calls Jesus a Prophet [Matthew 21:10-11], so how could Jesus be God and be God’s Prophet at the same time? That wouldn’t make sense.

    Additionally the Bible informs us that God does not change: I the Lord do not change. [Malachi 3:6:]. Jesus however went through many changes in his life such as age, height, weight etc.

    These are just some of the proofs within the Bible, which make it clear that the nature of Jesus and God is completely different. Some people may claim that Jesus had both a human and a divine nature. This is a claim that Jesus never made, and is in clear contradiction to the Bible which maintains that God has one nature.

    Why Jesus said: I am the way and the truth and the life



    John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    see here the true meaning







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    Last edited by eninn; 12-05-2017 at 02:14 AM.

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    The most common belief among Christians is the belief that Jesus died for our sins, but the question is:
    Who said that Jesus died for our sins?

    Actually when we look at the verses Christians use to prove this belief, we find that 95% of these verses are from Paul’s epistles, and the verses used to prove this belief from the Gospels are very few, which puts a question mark on its source and whether Jesus really told that he would die on the cross for our sins.

    As I illustrated in my post :”Concept of salvation between Islam and Christianity“we as Muslims don’t need to believe that God needs to be a man or to be crucified for our sins, because God is mightier than that, we actually believe that this is a blasphemy and an insult against God. For sin to be forgiven by God, mans should repent faithfully to God, and acknowledge his sins, and God is the All Forgiver and All Merciful who will forgive him if He really knew he is really intending to repent and stop the sin:

    110. And whoever does a wrong or wrongs himself but then seeks forgiveness of Allāh will find Allāh Forgiving and Merciful. ( Holy Quran 4:110)
    Doesn’t God forgive sins without Jesus dying?

    No need for all that so that God forgives my sins, and this is what is also said by the Old Testament:

    Eze 18:21″But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

    Eze 18:22None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live.
    Did Jesus know that he came to die for our sins?

    Jesus (Peace be upon him) wasn’t clear in clarifying his supposed main message, something like this must have been very clear so that no one doubts, but even according to the Gospels, it seems that Jesus didn’t know about it, look at what he said:

    Joh 17:4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do.

    Jesus tells that he accomplished the work God gave to him. This work is to tell people about God, as all prophets did. If he really knew that he came to die for our sins and the plan of salvation Christians talk about it, he won’t have said that he accomplished the work God gave him to do.



    someone told me;
    I agree with you, however, that Jesus Christ was send as a messenger by God, nothing else. Jesus said so himself as quoted in John 7:16: "I am not teaching you my own thoughts, but those of God who sent me."

    Much of the blame for distoring the mission of Jesus Christ belongs to the apostle Paul

    so

    Jesus Christ peace be upon him
    Not sacrificed for any one

    e.x
    You have a disease
    Then comes your brother
    Receive treatment instead of you

    Is this acceptable to the logic of the mind?

    Death to the people who worshiped the calf is repentance
    At the time of the Prophet Moses, peace be upon him

    Then
    At the time of the Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him

    Law requires repentance from sin without having to death

    Jesus Christ peace be upon him
    Not sacrificed for any one


    (the soul that sinneth, it shall die)


    Each person is responsible for his actions

    (the soul that sinneth, it shall die)

    “If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right...he is righteous, he shall surely live...If he begets a son who...has done all these abominable things; he (the son) shall surely die...the son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father for the iniquity of the son.” (Ezekiel 18:5-20)

    “Every one shall die for his own sin.” (Jeremiah 31:30)


    احمد ديدات التزييف فى الكتاب المقدس Plaigirism in The Bible ...


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    فتاة اسرائيلية تصدم الجمهور بجمالها فيصدمها ذاكر نايك بكل ...

    يابانية ملحدة تشتم نبينا محمد أمام آلاف المسلمين فيأتيها ال ...

    فتاة تستفز ذاكر نايك بشده في سؤال محرج لكن الشيخ تدارك نفسه وقصف جبهتها !!

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    Why Islam is Wrong, by Internationally Acclaimed Speaker and Teacher Ravi Zacharias





    Muslims declare that Jesus was a prophet of God. Can a prophet lie? No. So why don't Muslims believe Jesus when he said he is the ONLY WAY to the Father??

    John 14:6 - (Jesus speaking): "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH ME."

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    Quote Originally Posted by eninn View Post
    The most common belief among Christians is the belief that Jesus died for our sins, but the question is:
    Who said that Jesus died for our sins?

    Actually when we look at the verses Christians use to prove this belief, we find that 95% of these verses are from Paul’s epistles, and the verses used to prove this belief from the Gospels are very few, which puts a question mark on its source and whether Jesus really told that he would die on the cross for our sins.
    (the soul that sinneth, it shall die)

    “If a man is righteous and does what is lawful and right...he is righteous, he shall surely live...If he begets a son who...has done all these abominable things; he (the son) shall surely die...the son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father for the iniquity of the son.” (Ezekiel 18:5-20)

    “Every one shall die for his own sin.” (Jeremiah 31:30)
    What's hypocritical is to say that God's messenger, Paul, is misled, while Islam's messenger, Muhammad, speaks the truth. Very self-serving of Muslims to say that.

    But what's really revealing is to understand that Jesus and Paul agree on the major tenets of the faith: Excerpts:
    1. Atonement
      1. Jesus
        1. "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11)
      2. Paul
        1. "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2).
    2. Deity of Jesus
      1. Jesus
        1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
      2. Paul
        1. "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8.
    3. Forgiveness
      1. Jesus
        1. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14).
      2. Paul
        1. "And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32).
    4. Jesus is the only way
      1. Jesus
        1. "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).
      2. Paul
        1. "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5).
    5. Justification by faith
      1. Jesus
        1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13.
      2. Paul
        1. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1 )
    Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing?

    https://carm.org/questions/other-que...ach-same-thing
    Last edited by Archangel; 12-05-2017 at 02:23 PM.

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    Muslims love to present scriptures of when Jesus incarnated as man, to try to say he was only a man.

    But they limit or completely ignore the scriptures that show the deity of Jesus BEFORE AND AFTER HIS INCARNATION. And if they don't ignore those they try to present the two views as a contradiction, when it isn't.

    John chapter 1 shows that Jesus was God in the beginning.


    The Word Became Flesh

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

    Philippians 2 shows that Jesus was God before he was incarnated as a man:


    5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature[ God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
    7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature of a servant,

    being made in human likeness.
    8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
    even death on a cross!

    Now, Jesus is in heaven again, as the Alpha and Omega and the Almighty God:

    Revelation 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Note: Revelation 1:8 is Jesus speaking.

    Revelation 22:12 -
    “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."





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    Quote Originally Posted by eninn View Post
    Jesus is a figure who is loved and revered by billions of people the world over. Yet there is so much confusion surrounding the status of this colossal personality. Muslims and Christians both hold Jesus in high regard but view him in very different ways...
    The issue might just be because there were those, as there still are, who would be sure to go out of their way to disguise who Jesus really was, as the Son of God, for the Gnosis is the Word that was with him in the beginning...

    That Christ had a dual nature, as both God and man, where he could say his Father and he were one, meaning the same, but also that as a man he had limits on his power, and there is no Trinity that can be found, because he is God in full manifestation.

    He is the Father, and the Son, and the Holy, and the Ghost, as there is Fire, Earth, Air, and Water, as the elements he holds to himself, are part of the Law of One.

    The LORD rides upon a swift cloud (Isaiah 19:1), he shakes the capitals, he has the ability to break down every fortress that is against him, as he shall be, he will be their every undermining.

    The Bible is no perfect essay, as it has several authors, some inspired, some politically motivated, some religiously studied, some advocated, with whole other works not considered 'good' enough for programming.


    Jesus said the fulfillment of the Law and prophets is to love the LORD thy God with all of thine heart, and to love one's neighbor, to treat them as you would wish done to yourself, but if those basic tenets are violated, there always seems to be more war and fighting.

    He threw over the tables of the money changers who had caged animals to sell for blood sacrifice, of which God never asked for, while it was a requirement that Moses made up, claimed he heard it from God, while Jesus was forced to set the record straight, as scriptures received redacting.

    Genesis 1: in 6 days he finished it all, the herb and plants are for meat; Leviticus 24, if no justice is served to the Animal Kingdom, what will happen to man; Isaiah 1, 66:3, that he who kills an ox is the same as he who kills a man, and he who sacrifices a lamb, the same as he who breaks a dog's neck.

    The basic tenets any society should be able to rely upon, is was their neighbor also a horse that was whipped, or an animal called "unwanted", or were the hogs who can till the ground regarded an enemy because man got himself wrapped up inside of capitalism, that the purse can never be prevented.

    The Egyptians knew exactly when to plant based upon a single star's position, Sirius, so who dams rivers to a particular detriment, so the land languishes and God withholds what he would like to bless, just because the laws of God are broken, that nature cannot be tamed because God will never be tamed.

    Isaiah 19:24-25: In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance", so what part of that Word gets modified?
    Plant farms and animal sanctuaries with just compensation: Genesis 1:29-30, 2-3, Lev. 24:18-22, Psalm 50, Isaiah 1, 11:6-9, 65, 66, Daniel 1, Hosea 2:18, Revelation 20-22.

    Creation of horses: Zechariah 6:1-8, 14:20. Wild Horses, burros persecuted, parted out in violation of Public Law 92-195:
    https://twitter.com/WildHorseEdu

    Jesus was a Vegetarian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx6J6jh1Dzo

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    Quote Originally Posted by barb012 View Post
    All religions have one thing in common is that they all think that theirs is the true one and all others are not. None of them consider the fact that prior to agriculture that there were many GODS giving to explain natural events in their environment. As Humans learned agriculture which supported a larger group of people, the one GOD belief was replaced by all of the GODS previously assigned to nature.

    This GOD was not a loving, forgiving one for if anyone sinned they were killed. Women that had a child out of wedlock were murdered. The idea that Jesus was born from a Virgin Mother when there probably was a lot of women living in that time frame also claimed to have a virgin birth for fear of death is not mentioned purposely to protect the integrity of Jesus's birth.


    How do you know that. History only goes back about 8,000 years until you run into a wall. We don't know what people before then believed. I believe the generations after Adam and eve carried on the faith of one God. I don't know it but I believe it. I should say I don't believe mankind lived for 2.99 million years before figuring out writing and building stone shelters.To wit, man hasn't had that much time to believe in much of anything.

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    " "I and the Father are One"
    "I am the Way, the Truth and the Light"
    Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Does that make him GOD?

    Before we start: Please visit Jesus saying "I am the way and the truth and the life..." doesn't prove that he is the Creator of the Universe. Jesus promised and guaranteed Paradise to non-trinitarians.


    Some people read:

    "I am the way, ...no one comes to the Father, but through me."

    When reading this verse, for some reason some people see in it a confirmation of the Trinity. Although I can not see how they can read either an explicit or even an implicit reference to the Trinity in this verse, still, due to it's popularity it deserves to be studied

    There appear to be a sizable number of Christians who when reading this verse interpret it to state that Jesus is God and that no one shall enter into heaven except if they worship Jesus. However, since it is brought up so often in discussions of the Trinity it appears to be appropriate to discuss it here.

    The popular perception that this verse claims that Jesus requires our worship in order for us to receive salvation is not the intended meaning of this verse. However, in order for us to recognize this fact it is necessary to study it's context.

    If we were to back up a little and read from the beginning of this chapter, we would find that just before Jesus spoke these words, he said;

    "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places); if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place) for you."

    John 14:2

    The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of the Qur'an. In the Qur'an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations. We are told that the basic message which was given to each of these tribes was the same: "Worship God alone and worship none else." Some of the secondary details of this worship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God's infinite wisdom and his knowledge of those people. It was made very clear to each prophet that he was not to preach to anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to this messenger's people that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward of God. God would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did not do. This would continue until God's last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be sent to all mankind as the seal of the prophets.

    This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God's mansion there are "many" rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one of them. The countless other rooms were reserved for other tribes and nations if they would obey their messengers. However, Jesus was telling his followers that they need not worry themselves about the other rooms. Anyone from among his people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for them could only do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that he was going to prepare "a" mansion and not "all" the mansions in "my Father's house".

    Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the "WAY" to a mansion. He did not say that he is the "DESTINATION" which would be the case if he were God. What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the 'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does. It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God. This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is "the door" to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides his people to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message of Islam.

    Finally, remember

    "Not every one that says to me(Jesus); 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of my Father, who is in heaven."

    Matthew.7:21

    Why Jesus said: I am the way and the truth and the life - ...



    " I am The Way, The truth, And The Life "..MUST WATCH - ...
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    Last edited by eninn; 12-12-2017 at 02:16 AM.

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