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Thread: The church and doctrine

  1. #21
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    Standing Wolf's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    No, I'm not, sir. I'm sure those tens of thousands of sects do require some kind of conformity but that's not the point. That there are indeed tens of thousands of them is my point. It was the beginning of the end.
    Can you envision a world in which the Catholic Church still held the kind of sway over all matters, not only religious but civil and political, that it did in the Fifteenth Century? (Several good sci-fi/alternative history books have been written with that premise, of course.) Outside of the realm of imaginative fiction, however, it's difficult to believe that such a situation could exist in modern times. I understand what it is that you're suggesting; I guess what I'm asking, then, is don't you think the schisms, the divisions, the multiplication of sects and denominations and cults was inevitable? After all, there were many breakaway sects before Luther's time which defied the Church's dogmatic pronouncements; is there any reason to think that things would have turned out differently without him?
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    Ethereal's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    Another potentially interesting thread derailed by somebody's need to make it personal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    The funny thing is that there is a direct historical connection between the Protestant demand for individual interpretation, secularism and finally atheism.
    Personally, I blame agriculture...
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    Kacper's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    But why should that church (or any other church, for that matter) claim any doctrine?

    Perhaps centuries ago, when most people were entirely illiterate (and even the Gutenberg Bible had not yet been printed), it may have made some sense for those few who were literate to spoon-feed the parishioners. Nowadays, it does not.
    Their house, their rules.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    Can you envision a world in which the Catholic Church still held the kind of sway over all matters, not only religious but civil and political, that it did in the Fifteenth Century? (Several good sci-fi/alternative history books have been written with that premise, of course.) Outside of the realm of imaginative fiction, however, it's difficult to believe that such a situation could exist in modern times. I understand what it is that you're suggesting; I guess what I'm asking, then, is don't you think the schisms, the divisions, the multiplication of sects and denominations and cults was inevitable? After all, there were many breakaway sects before Luther's time which defied the Church's dogmatic pronouncements; is there any reason to think that things would have turned out differently without him?
    I can't picture that world at all. It never existed.

    Anyway, I don't think division was inevitable. It's ultimately about what men do and the choices they make. It was unfortunate that Leo X and Martin Luther were two of the most important personalities involved. The former was more concerned with politics and the arts than he was with the need for reform. The other was an uncompromising fanatic. History, Wolf, is always about men. The cultural and political background is important. It sets the stage for the drama but the actors lines are not scripted.

    That said, I do think there were tensions within Christianity that militated against unity. As you noted earlier, there was always an individualist stream in Christian thought and the concept of a truly transcendent God (foreign to pagan thought) separated the divine from the material world, human social structures and virtually all collective human endeavors. Marcel Gauchet calls this the "disenchantment" of the world. It helped inculcate a sense that the only path to the divine is a personal one. I am of course oversimplifying.
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    I think the biggest contributor to what could be described as the "atomization" of societies is technology. Technology has made the material benefits of a tightly knit community somewhat redundant. That is probably why we see a stronger communal culture in societies with less technology. But while technology has allowed individuals to become more materially independent - at least, on the surface - it has made them weaker in other regards. The challenge of "modern" man is to balance the benefits of technology while maintaining a connection to his pre-technological origins.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Ethereal For This Useful Post:

    Cthulhu (12-10-2017),pjohns (11-13-2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I think the biggest contributor to what could be described as the "atomization" of societies is technology. Technology has made the material benefits of a tightly knit community somewhat redundant. That is probably why we see a stronger communal culture in societies with less technology. But while technology has allowed individuals to become more materially independent - at least, on the surface - it has made them weaker in other regards. The challenge of "modern" man is to balance the benefits of technology while maintaining a connection to his pre-technological origins.
    Odd, isn't it, that social media isolates people.
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    pjohns's Avatar Senior Member
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    Here are some examples that leap to mind:

    Which method of interpretation of the Book of Revelation (i.e. The Apocalypse in Catholic churches) is probably correct--and why? (Note: There is almost an infinite number of individual interpretations of the book; but only four methods of interpretation. They are as follows: (1) the poetic method, which is often embraced by liberal scholars; this method holds that there are no actual events being described in the book, but merely the certain victory of the Forces of God over the Forces of Satan; (2) the preterist method, which is sometimes embraced by a subset of conservative scholars; this method holds that the entirety of the book--yes, including even the much-ballyhooed "Battle of Armageddon"--was fulfilled by the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, by the armies of Titus, in AD 70; (3) the continuous historical method, which was embraced by most of the Reformers; this method holds that the book details the journey of the church from the first century until the Eschaton (or End Times); and (4) the futurist method, which is embraced by most televangelists; this method holds that the entire book (with the exception, early on, as concerning the Seven Churches of Asia) revolves around the Eschaton.

    May a woman teach over men?
    Some New Testament verses appear to say no (e.g. I Timothy 2:12). Or was this an accommodation toward the customs of that time and place, only--plus the fact that the women of Ephesus were quite uneducated?

    Was Phoebe a deaconess?
    In Romans 16:1, Phoebe is described as a diakonon of the church at Rome. This may either be transliterated, "deaconess"; or translated, "servant" (in a generic sense). Appeals to grammar will not solve this conundrum. It is purely a matter of theology--not grammar.

    May baptism include pouring and/or sprinkling?The problem here is twofold: (1) Paul referred to baptism as "a burial with Christ"; and (2) the verb, baptizo--which is transliterated as "baptize"--means to immerse, according to all the Greek-English lexicons that I have seen.

    These are just a few of the doctrinal questions to which I refer.But I think that it would be much better for each person to come to a conclusion individually, as regarding these (and other) matters...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper View Post
    Their house, their rules.
    But that assumes--I believe--that I would be pleased with any church that held to all the same beliefs that I do.

    I would not.

    Emphatically, I would not.

    For if the church sets forth any doctrinal views--even views with which I thoroughly agree--I believe that it is overstepping its bounds.

    Very much so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjohns View Post
    But that assumes--I believe--that I would be pleased with any church that held to all the same beliefs that I do.

    I would not.

    Emphatically, I would not.

    For if the church sets forth any doctrinal views--even views with which I thoroughly agree--I believe that it is overstepping its bounds.

    Very much so.
    Doctrine is simply the teachings of a religion. Your position is that churches should not be allowed to teach anything about their religion to their congregation.

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