Kathleen Sebelius

[Ransom]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/22/politi...ior/index.html

"Not only did people look the other way, but they went after the women who came forward and accused him," says Kathleen Sebelius, the former secretary of Health and Human Services and Kansas governor. "And so it doubled down on not only bad behavior but abusive behavior. And then people attacked the victims."
Sebelius extended her criticism to Hillary Clinton, and the Clinton White House for what she called a strategy of dismissing and besmirching the women who stepped forward—a pattern she said is being repeated today by alleged perpetrators of sexual assault—saying that the criticism of the former first lady and Secretary of State was "absolutely" fair. Sebelius noted that the Clinton Administration's response was being imitated, adding that "you can watch that same pattern repeat, It needs to end. It needs to be over."

See.....someone like me.....who remembers the American Left circling the wagons around Clinton......finds all this current day "outrage" a bunch of f'n poppyc0ck. Every woman who stepped forward to accuse Bill Clinton....was destroyed. The Investigators......specifically Ken Starr....was labeled a pervert for going after Clinton and lying under oath about it. There was a pattern of behavior for Bill as so many tell us is the bar today. Numerous women. Rape allegations. Sexual harassment. And the Left did...like Sebelius here claims....look the other way......and not only ignore these women....but set out to destroy them. These same women almost got Hillary into power.....they failed.....and now want to pretend that this behavior...shocks or outrages them? Please.

[Trish]

I agree that Bill Clinton's accusers were mistreated and dismissed. What I don't understand is this fallback to Bill Clinton as an excuse to current behavior. There are many things we can reflect back on that were bad but still happened with little to no argument from society at the time. We, as a country and a people evolve in our way of thinking. We simply cannot weigh how we handled situation from past years to situations of today. It's good that we can now say as a majority that these men's behavior and actions as accused are wrong and should be dealt with. To continue to litigate past situations and think we should go back and re-try people is opening Pandora's box.

Again, yes, Bill Clinton was a pig and he abused women. Hilary Clinton did what wives were expected to do back then. She defended her husband however she could and as a trained lawyer she used her ability to twist information and discredit the accuser. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.

[Grokmaster]

I agree that Bill Clinton's accusers were mistreated and dismissed. What I don't understand is this fallback to Bill Clinton as an excuse to current behavior. There are many things we can reflect back on that were bad but still happened with little to no argument from society at the time. We, as a country and a people evolve in our way of thinking. We simply cannot weigh how we handled situation from past years to situations of today. It's good that we can now say as a majority that these men's behavior and actions as accused are wrong and should be dealt with. To continue to litigate past situations and think we should go back and re-try people is opening Pandora's box.

Again, yes, Bill Clinton was a pig and he abused women. Hilary Clinton did what wives were expected to do back then. She defended her husband however she could and as a trained lawyer she used her ability to twist information and discredit the accuser. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.

Not really, as far as Hillary goes. She was protecting her POLITCAL AMBITIONS.

[Tahuyaman]

Again the criticism is too late. These people have no integrity.

[Ransom]

I agree that Bill Clinton's accusers were mistreated and dismissed. What I don't understand is this fallback to Bill Clinton as an excuse to current behavior. There are many things we can reflect back on that were bad but still happened with little to no argument from society at the time. We, as a country and a people evolve in our way of thinking. We simply cannot weigh how we handled situation from past years to situations of today. It's good that we can now say as a majority that these men's behavior and actions as accused are wrong and should be dealt with. To continue to litigate past situations and think we should go back and re-try people is opening Pandora's box.

Again, yes, Bill Clinton was a pig and he abused women. Hilary Clinton did what wives were expected to do back then. She defended her husband however she could and as a trained lawyer she used her ability to twist information and discredit the accuser. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.

I don't see anyone using Bill Clinton to excuse behavior, who is making that argument, Trish? What the Clinton's did is what it is. The argument being made, by the starter of this thread at least, is that many arguments today.....especially when coming from anyone who has been in the Clinton Camp....falls on deaf ears. I've seen no one here excuse Roy Moore's behavior. I've seen no one excuse Trump's remarks heard on a tape including his own wife. What we have seen, is excuses for Al Franken(go look to that thread)
Try to understand the argument being submitted rather than your personal opinion for a minute, Trish. Let's take this out of politics and stay with the great analogies using tv and Hollywood. The argument I'm trying to make.....is that a 'casting couch' environment is what everyone I've ever known speaks to concerning Hollywood. Who is doing who. Failed marriages and drug use. Spousal abuse and rampant Charlie Sheen type fornication, none of this harmed the American psyche. For decades.....everyone knows what goes on in Hollywood, their parties legendary, the drugs and lifestyle they then go and make more movies about. The fact that Directors and Producers are balling the Actresses?? What!! Imagine the nation's shock at learning a Harvey Weinstein could be fcking his movie stars, that one shock or surprise you, Trish?

Oh, it gets better. The actresses who have already made their millions, those with clout, those with industry power....never said a word. Watched generation after generation of women walk through the same doors they did, get the same jobs and roles, it was obvious what was going on......but suddenly......come 2017.......I'm supposed to belief anyone is shocked, outraged, or offended by this behavior. Please. It's not making excuses for they way they behaved, Trish, do you see the difference. No one is making excuses for those in Hollywood now under fire from Spacey to Weinstein, actor to Industry owner, no one is excusing their behavior. But at least this Member doesn't believe anyone today who pretends outrage this behavior wasn't rampant and known. It doesn't offend any of us. Does it?

[Captdon]

I agree that Bill Clinton's accusers were mistreated and dismissed. What I don't understand is this fallback to Bill Clinton as an excuse to current behavior. There are many things we can reflect back on that were bad but still happened with little to no argument from society at the time. We, as a country and a people evolve in our way of thinking. We simply cannot weigh how we handled situation from past years to situations of today. It's good that we can now say as a majority that these men's behavior and actions as accused are wrong and should be dealt with. To continue to litigate past situations and think we should go back and re-try people is opening Pandora's box.

Again, yes, Bill Clinton was a pig and he abused women. Hilary Clinton did what wives were expected to do back then. She defended her husband however she could and as a trained lawyer she used her ability to twist information and discredit the accuser. I don't agree with it but it is what it is.

A half-assed excuse for defending and ignoring Bill Clinton. We aren't talking the 1800's. We're takling about 25 years ago and a woman who just lost the Presidency and still defends him. As due you. trying to ignore him is the same defense as then. Roy Moore - 40 years is relevant. Billy Boy- 5 years and it's not relevant. You are what you are.

[Ransom]

A half-assed excuse for defending and ignoring Bill Clinton. We aren't talking the 1800's. We're takling about 25 years ago and a woman who just lost the Presidency and still defends him. As due you. trying to ignore him is the same defense as then. Roy Moore - 40 years is relevant. Billy Boy- 5 years and it's not relevant. You are what you are.

And no one is using Bill Clinton as an excuse, where is she even getting that? We're using Bill Clinton to highlight the sheer hypocrisy on the part of so many here......and we're using Bill Clinton and other events to point out why we think today's supposed outrage, especially by many many many women...and men....is made up, disingenuous, and fake news.

[Trish]

I don't see anyone using Bill Clinton to excuse behavior, who is making that argument, Trish? What the Clinton's did is what it is. The argument being made, by the starter of this thread at least, is that many arguments today.....especially when coming from anyone who has been in the Clinton Camp....falls on deaf ears. I've seen no one here excuse Roy Moore's behavior. I've seen no one excuse Trump's remarks heard on a tape including his own wife. What we have seen, is excuses for Al Franken(go look to that thread)
Try to understand the argument being submitted rather than your personal opinion for a minute, Trish. Let's take this out of politics and stay with the great analogies using tv and Hollywood. The argument I'm trying to make.....is that a 'casting couch' environment is what everyone I've ever known speaks to concerning Hollywood. Who is doing who. Failed marriages and drug use. Spousal abuse and rampant Charlie Sheen type fornication, none of this harmed the American psyche. For decades.....everyone knows what goes on in Hollywood, their parties legendary, the drugs and lifestyle they then go and make more movies about. The fact that Directors and Producers are balling the Actresses?? What!! Imagine the nation's shock at learning a Harvey Weinstein could be fcking his movie stars, that one shock or surprise you, Trish?

Oh, it gets better. The actresses who have already made their millions, those with clout, those with industry power....never said a word. Watched generation after generation of women walk through the same doors they did, get the same jobs and roles, it was obvious what was going on......but suddenly......come 2017.......I'm supposed to belief anyone is shocked, outraged, or offended by this behavior. Please. It's not making excuses for they way they behaved, Trish, do you see the difference. No one is making excuses for those in Hollywood now under fire from Spacey to Weinstein, actor to Industry owner, no one is excusing their behavior. But at least this Member doesn't believe anyone today who pretends outrage this behavior wasn't rampant and known. It doesn't offend any of us. Does it?

Morning Ransom and Happy Thanksgiving.

I agree with much of what you said in your response so I think there's clearly a misunderstanding in how you read my comment. In fact, I'm pretty certain comments I've made on other threads regarding the Hollywood shock over a standard practice for ions is frankly shocking in itself.

The newest trend in Hollywood seems to be coming forth as someone who agreed to endure sexual acts or conduct in order to make millions of dollars but now is upset over that agreement. Last time I checked I think it was called prostitution. That doesn't mean that there are not legitimate claims.

With respect to my reference about the Clintons. Quite frankly I'm tired of hearing the right invoke the Clintons. As soon as I hear "Clinton did it" or why didn't such in such do this when the Clintons were accused. IMO, it's a stale argument that has been offered so many times that it no longer holds any weight.

My original point that I was trying to make was that society has accepted certain behaviors or norms in the past that we should not have and would not in today's society. That was not dismissing what the Clinton's did but it offered an explanation as to why people were ready to believe them rather than the accusers.

My hope is that we've learned from the past and we should at minimum consider what the accusers have claimed. To raise past abusers like Clinton is in essence making an attempt to excuse current day abusers by comparing the reactions of those on the right or left of the aisle back then.

[Trish]

And no one is using Bill Clinton as an excuse, where is she even getting that? We're using Bill Clinton to highlight the sheer hypocrisy on the part of so many here......and we're using Bill Clinton and other events to point out why we think today's supposed outrage, especially by many many many women...and men....is made up, disingenuous, and fake news.

Hel.....lo - I'm right here and I can hear what you're saying about me!