Piggy Pork and Gay Wedding Cakes

[Chris]

It does make for quite a spectacle.

You see a lot of lofty abstractions.

[Dr. Who]

Of course you disagree, just that when you quote someone you ought to address what they said. If you're just going to express your views on the matter, don't quote.



Slavery was publicly accepted.

There has to be something more.



Yes, read them, they are supposed to serve and protect the people and their rights, not violate them to serve only some.



Then ground it in that reality, cite examples of governments that work the way you prefer them to. Don't just claim it.



For perhaps only 1-2% of man's 300000 year existence. So that claim doesn't stand.



For perhaps only 1-2% of man's 300000 year existence. So that claim doesn't stand.


You keep claiming your view is grounded in reality.




And they like risks and going around the law.

Reality?



Slavery.

Those thoughts are very Rousseauian and Hegelian whose ideas led to totalitarian states. (Comment on your post, not you.)

Hmmm. Don't see a lot of links/proof in your response either. The preponderance of the human population has grown in the last thousand years, so your percentages are not particularly meaningful.

[Dr. Who]

Indeed, if you and I mutually voluntarily agree--a contract--then we ought to abide by that agreement and the law ought to enforce it. No argument there.

The baker never agreed to make the cake, he said no. No contract.


Obtaining a license is different for it is forced upon you. You have no choice.

Of course you have a choice. You don't have to be retail trade establishment. You can operate a bakery that is not open to the public and just supplies other establishments. Thousands do. They even make wedding cakes. The choice was his because he considers himself a cake artist. He can't have his cake and eat it.

[Chris]

Of course you have a choice. You don't have to be retail trade establishment. You can operate a bakery that is not open to the public and just supplies other establishments. Thousands do. They even make wedding cakes. The choice was his because he considers himself a cake artist. He can't have his cake and eat it.

That's not a free choice. One ought to be free to pursue happiness as one sees fit--another DoI founding principle, a right that the government denies people.

[Safety]

Indeed, if you and I mutually voluntarily agree--a contract--then we ought to abide by that agreement and the law ought to enforce it. No argument there.

The baker never agreed to make the cake, he said no. No contract.


Obtaining a license is different for it is forced upon you. You have no choice.

It you do have a choice, either take it or leave it. Nobody is saying you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Safety]

That's not a free choice. One ought to be free to pursue happiness as one sees fit--another DoI founding principle, a right that the government denies people.

It is the freest of all choices, the choice to pursue another way of life. I find it mildly amusing the amount of effort to argue this point about not being free to choose who to serve, when the underlying premise is that someone is forcing you to have a business. That is incorrect, owning a business is a privilege not a right, just like owning a farm is a choice. Let me know when the government forces you to milk cows.

[Chris]

Hmmm. Don't see a lot of links/proof in your response either. The preponderance of the human population has grown in the last thousand years, so your percentages are not particularly meaningful.

IOW, you have no challenges to my challenges to you. From quoting me and posting about something else to quoting me and saying nothing. That's not discussion, Who. Forums are all about discussion.

The preponderance of the human population has grown in the last thousand years, so your percentages are not particularly meaningful.

Except for that odd but unfounded claim. The rapid rise in population, that is, the escape from the Multusian Trap, came about largely because of the Enlightenment, based on individualism, free markets, science, technology and industry. All of which you want to regulate with your Rousseauian and Hegelian state.



What I post can be backed up with data.

1-2% of man's existence stateless:

Until shortly before the common era, the very last I percent of human history,
the social landscape consisted of elementary, self-governing, kinship
units that might, occasionally, cooperate in hunting, feasting, skirmishing,
trading, and peacemaking. It did not contain anything one could call a state.

James C Scott, The Art of Not Being Governed.

And the sources for you just-so stories and wishful thinking?

[Chris]

It you do have a choice, either take it or leave it. Nobody is saying you can have your cake and eat it too.

Was the baker given a choice? No, the law is imposed upon him and he is forced to serve others he chooses not to serve.

Did slaves have a free choice? No, the law imposed slavery on them.

[Chris]

It is the freest of all choices, the choice to pursue another way of life. I find it mildly amusing the amount of effort to argue this point about not being free to choose who to serve, when the underlying premise is that someone is forcing you to have a business. That is incorrect, owning a business is a privilege not a right, just like owning a farm is a choice. Let me know when the government forces you to milk cows.

But not the freedom to choose the career you prefer.

No one has argued you're forced to have a business, I think you're amused at your own musings.

My argument is you should be free to pursue happiness as you so choose, to contract and associate with whom you choose, etc etc etc all without interference from a government so long as you do no harm. And no one here has explained the harm in a baker choosing not to bake a cake for someone.

[Safety]

IOW, you have no challenges to my challenges to you. From quoting me and posting about something else to quoting me and saying nothing. That's not discussion, Who. Forums are all about discussion.



Except for that odd but unfounded claim. The rapid rise in population, that is, the escape from the Multusian Trap, came about largely because of the Enlightenment, based on individualism, free markets, science, technology and industry. All of which you want to regulate with your Rousseauian and Hegelian state.



What I post can be backed up with data.

1-2% of man's existence stateless:



James C Scott, The Art of Not Being Governed.

And the sources for you just-so stories and wishful thinking?

Well, if you rather live in Uganda or Bolivia to enjoy the type of society that is free from government like you advocate for, go right ahead.