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Thread: Piggy Pork and Gay Wedding Cakes

  1. #101
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    It's interesting, having read Who's and Safety's views are repeats of the collectivist left in Europe, the leading socialists, who followed Rousseau and Hegel, Marx and others. I'm sitting here reading about those well-known people and how they claimed the moral highground of altruism where morality is selfless, where the individual is expected to sacrifice for the greater good of the collective and how socialist leaders know better than the people what they want, and how true freedom is to be found in complete submission to the law. Of course that was dealt two blows. The second the bloody suppression of revolt in Hungary by Societ tanks and troops, all to send the message thosee two keep repreating that you eith er like it or leave. The first blow was the slightly earlier admission by Khrushchev of Stalin's mass murders of Soviet citizens. History says such thinking fails. Yet here we see it again.

    There is a difference. Back then it was all about oppression of workers and class struggle, nowadays it's about the oppression of identity groups and identity politics.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    IOW, you have no challenges to my challenges to you. From quoting me and posting about something else to quoting me and saying nothing. That's not discussion, Who. Forums are all about discussion.



    Except for that odd but unfounded claim. The rapid rise in population, that is, the escape from the Multusian Trap, came about largely because of the Enlightenment, based on individualism, free markets, science, technology and industry. All of which you want to regulate with your Rousseauian and Hegelian state.



    What I post can be backed up with data.

    1-2% of man's existence stateless:



    James C Scott, The Art of Not Being Governed.

    And the sources for you just-so stories and wishful thinking?
    So your graph about economic success has to do with what? Certainly not anarchistic states. Show me graphs about economically successful anarchistic nations if you can find any that have populations greater than a million people or a government at all. The population was increasing not just because of the enlightenment. It increased because of basic birth rate and multiplication i.e. X has 10 children who have 100 children who have 1000 children etc, allowing for disease, war and early death.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Safety View Post
    He is able to do all those things as a private citizen, as a business owner he is required to abide by the laws he agreed to when obtaining his business license. Driving may give you happiness and the ability to associate with those you want and the freedom to let ride in your vehicle whom you want, but if you speed, you will lose that privilege. It's not that hard to understand, sheesh.
    Yes, as I just posted, he is able to find freedom in submitting to the government.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    So your graph about economic success has to do with what? Certainly not anarchistic states. Show me graphs about economically successful anarchistic nations if you can find any that have populations greater than a million people or a government at all. The population was increasing not just because of the enlightenment. It increased because of basic birth rate and multiplication i.e. X has 10 children who have 100 children who have 1000 children etc, allowing for disease, war and early death.
    I explained what the graph had to do with. Go back and read. Look for Malthus.

    And please don't quote me unless you have something to say about what I post.

    Like I've said to Safety several times, no one is arguing for what you're arguing against--here, no one but you has mentioned anarchy, but it's not part of the argument about the baker. --Do you see how I comment on your post? Try it. It's really easy.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    It's interesting, having read Who's and Safety's views are repeats of the collectivist left in Europe, the leading socialists, who followed Rousseau and Hegel, Marx and others. I'm sitting here reading about those well-known people and how they claimed the moral highground of altruism where morality is selfless, where the individual is expected to sacrifice for the greater good of the collective and how socialist leaders know better than the people what they want, and how true freedom is to be found in complete submission to the law. Of course that was dealt two blows. The second the bloody suppression of revolt in Hungary by Societ tanks and troops, all to send the message thosee two keep repreating that you eith er like it or leave. The first blow was the slightly earlier admission by Khrushchev of Stalin's mass murders of Soviet citizens. History says such thinking fails. Yet here we see it again.

    There is a difference. Back then it was all about oppression of workers and class struggle, nowadays it's about the oppression of identity groups and identity politics.
    What interests me is Chris's appeal to authority, when I'm simply showing how a douchebag who didn't want to sell a cake to a couple of gay guys has him all wound up like the Gestapo raided his business and had his way with his wife. Your appeal to history also doesn't apply here.
    Nobody is holding a gun to your head. If you don't like what I post, ignore me. I'll post what I want, when I want, and where I want, regardless of how you or anyone else feels about it.

    - GA

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    I explained what the graph had to do with. Go back and read. Look for Malthus.

    And please don't quote me unless you have something to say about what I post.

    Like I've said to Safety several times, no one is arguing for what you're arguing against--here, no one but you has mentioned anarchy, but it's not part of the argument about the baker. --Do you see how I comment on your post? Try it. It's really easy.
    You know what Chris, you don't actually argue about what I post either. Anarchy is the source of your posts. I can't help but mention it because you don't believe in the state at all, so without mentioning anarchy your posts don't even make any reasonable sense. It's like arguing with someone from another planet. You just say the law is wrong or shouldn't exist and start name dropping economists and theory. That ignores the reality of states and the reality of economics. Perhaps I should fall back on my perfect utopia - the world of Star Trek, where people don't need money at all and capitalism or even the free market is a distant amusing memory.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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  8. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    It's interesting, having read Who's and Safety's views are repeats of the collectivist left in Europe, the leading socialists, who followed Rousseau and Hegel, Marx and others. I'm sitting here reading about those well-known people and how they claimed the moral highground of altruism where morality is selfless, where the individual is expected to sacrifice for the greater good of the collective and how socialist leaders know better than the people what they want, and how true freedom is to be found in complete submission to the law. Of course that was dealt two blows. The second the bloody suppression of revolt in Hungary by Societ tanks and troops, all to send the message thosee two keep repreating that you eith er like it or leave. The first blow was the slightly earlier admission by Khrushchev of Stalin's mass murders of Soviet citizens. History says such thinking fails. Yet here we see it again.

    There is a difference. Back then it was all about oppression of workers and class struggle, nowadays it's about the oppression of identity groups and identity politics.
    Why does every argument about the state result in comments about collectivism, socialism and ultimately communism with you? You have somehow equated human rights protections with violent political regimes. Should I follow your way of thinking, I should suggest that your views are repeats of Southern Dixiecrats like Strom Thurmond, Russell Long, Harry Byrd and George Wallace.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    His freedom to pursue happiness as he saw fit, his freedom to associate with whom he pleases, his freedom to to contract with whom he pleases.

    Your denial is not an argument.
    Just like no one in the south really took away black rights when they didn't allow them in restaurants, hotels (except as workers), on buses except in the back or allowed them to drink from the same water fountains, swim in the same swimming pools or attend the same schools as whites. Rights of association truly reigned supreme in the south. Such a tribute to freedom, unless of course you were black.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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  12. #109
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    The “using religion to hide bigotry” argument is bogus. You shouldn’t be able to demand someone else caves to your way of thinking-and if they don’t, label them a bigot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Just like no one in the south really took away black rights when they didn't allow them in restaurants, hotels (except as workers), on buses except in the back or allowed them to drink from the same water fountains, swim in the same swimming pools or attend the same schools as whites. Rights of association truly reigned supreme in the south. Such a tribute to freedom, unless of course you were black.
    But that was different, it wasn't about civil rights, it was about victim groups and identity politics....

    Blacks didn't need to have their rights protected, especially not at the expense of denying whites the right to hate them...I swear sometimes I think George Wallace is posting here from the grave.
    Nobody is holding a gun to your head. If you don't like what I post, ignore me. I'll post what I want, when I want, and where I want, regardless of how you or anyone else feels about it.

    - GA

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