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Thread: The hard road of free markets

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Who do you think is in the government vs the citizenry - different species? The corruption that you find in government comes from its citizens.
    OK, you have repeatedly said central planning is required because you don't trust the people to make their own decisions. "Who do you think is in the government vs the citizenry - different species?"

    Corruption comes from power.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    In about five minutes it would turn into capitalism, just as it did in the past because as long as we value money above everything else, it will always be thus.
    Why? Again, you make claims without any plausible explanation.

    A plausible explanation would be agriculture required protection of a state, so the state formed as a power structure. The power was then seen as a means to attain what one wants, so rather than compete in the market, people started rent seeking favors from the state, and the state, needing to fund it's armies, sold out to the highest bidders. That is the emergence of corruption.

    Things don't just magically turn into capitalism.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpublius View Post
    Money is a veil though. You just don't get it. I don't value the 'money' I value the THREE THOUSAND $#@!ING HOURS I BILLED THIS YEAR. I don't value the money 'above all else' I value that because it represents a MASSIVE $#@!ING EFFORT.
    And you value what you can exchange for that for your family and yourself.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    There are people who put in even more than 3,000 hours a year who don't get a 10th of what you get for those 12-hour days. However, consider why you have to put in 12-hour days. Go back a few hundred years. Most people routinely put in 12-hour days 7-days a week back then. Was it always because they needed to work that hard to live or was it often because their labor was often primarily accruing to someone else so that they had to work at least half as much again just to eat? If you look at the value that your labor accrues to someone else and the number of people who are probably living very well off the value of your labor without working at all, you will see that the current system is set up to create a pyramidal system where the many support the few in the lap of luxury. Now today for some people working 12-hour days is the difference between just having the necessities of life and for others it is about about being a part of a certain class, having a certain house and paying for very expensive university educations for their children.

    Realistically, if 90% of all after-tax profits were not going to investors who do nothing to earn income, you wouldn't have to work as hard, but the entire system from banking to the stock market is set up this way. Product that millions of hours of labor takes to create is destroyed routinely, rather than selling for less, produce that farmers sweat blood to deliver is burned, rather than lower prices. Who is really benefitting from all of this waste? You? Your family? TBH as the 'market' is increasingly involved in the bottom line of businesses and the value of currency, people have gone from the American dream to the American nightmare. Simultaneously, the population has been taught to believe that they deserve a standard of luxury that their parents didn't enjoy and they are not willing to wait to upgrade. They have to have it before they hit their 40's, so there has never been a greater level of personal debt, not to mention national debt. What is the common denominator?

    That's pure Marxist exploitation theory based on the labor theory of value. What Newpublius was arguing was the subjective theory of value. That's why he says you don't get it.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Don't just make claims. Argue your point. How do your explain the global market where no government controls it? Untill you establish your basic premise the rest of your argument is nonsense. The free market disappeared? Honestly, who, where do you come up with these things?
    Half of the global market is comprised of multinational corporations that for all intents and purposes own governments. Hardly representative of 'free trade'. They have a habit of buying up all of their competition with resultant oligopolies. So much for the 'invisible hand' in competitive pricing. They conspire among themselves and with governments to set prices. The other half of the market either trades according to negotiated trade agreements between nations, which includes price setting or absent trade agreements, subject to stiff protectionist duties. Again not really fitting the definition of a free market. So where exactly is that elusive global free market?
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Half of the global market is comprised of multinational corporations that for all intents and purposes own governments. Hardly representative of 'free trade'. They have a habit of buying up all of their competition with resultant oligopolies. So much for the 'invisible hand' in competitive pricing. They conspire among themselves and with governments to set prices. The other half of the market either trades according to negotiated trade agreements between nations, which includes price setting or absent trade agreements, subject to stiff protectionist duties. Again not really fitting the definition of a free market. So where exactly is that elusive global free market?
    Half of the global market is comprised of multinational corporations that for all intents and purposes own governments.
    That is a false liberal/socialist narrative. You give it away with your hedging "for all intents and purposes." You speak in metaphors because the truth is corporation do not own the government. They collude together because the corporations need the political power and the politicians need to corporate wealth to keep getting elected. You even stray into the truth of the matter: "They conspire among themselves and with governments to set prices."

    Negotiated trade agreements are the fixed market, not the free market.

    Your string of disconnected premises is false.


    Let everyone note that the post of mine Who quotes has to do with a challenge to her previous false argument, that contrary to here opinion no government controls the global market, but she does not address that at all.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    That is a false liberal/socialist narrative. You give it away with your hedging "for all intents and purposes." You speak in metaphors because the truth is corporation do not own the government. They collude together because the corporations need the political power and the politicians need to corporate wealth to keep getting elected. You even stray into the truth of the matter: "They conspire among themselves and with governments to set prices."

    Negotiated trade agreements are the fixed market, not the free market.

    Your string of disconnected premises is false.


    Let everyone note that the post of mine Who quotes has to do with a challenge to her previous false argument, that contrary to here opinion no government controls the global market, but she does not address that at all.
    Multinationals own people in government, a lot of people - either on the direct payment plan or on the deferred payment plan. Thus for all intents and purposes, they own government(s). I'm speaking internationally here. Who said they didn't collude? Of course, they collude. That is all made possible because elected representatives can be bought either through campaign funding, promises of well-paid post-political positions or good old-fashioned envelopes full of money. At the end of the day, the ones with the bags full of money end up calling the shots. To the multinationals, that's just the cost of doing business. I don't understand where this was unclear or where we are really not in agreement.

    You still haven't stated where this global free market exists. All you did was to pretend that there really is some error in my argument. There isn't. Politicians are for sale. You can call it mutual backscratching if you like, but the only free market that exists is in the prices for political favors.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Refugee View Post

    Yes, it would, that’s why it always does. We value money because of the lifestyle it provides and the ability of ownership it creates. Eventually it gets out of hand and corporations become bigger than the governement and its people. That’s the time to introduce legislation, not destroy it. The problem now is that so many people in the hierarchy are involved in corruption, it’s beginning to be impossible to stop.

    So, what’s the solution? As long as people keep voting for the political corruption it will never stop. Socialism has shown that particular system to be a nonsense. We carry on, ignoring the rest, putting aside the jealousy, stop trying to create impossible economic utopias and as long as we can put food on the table, afford medical care and own what we have, our standard of living is going to far surpass that of any previous generation.


    Is it jealousy that others have more, or are we trying to create an economic utopia of equality. No one was ever equal and someone will always have more or less than we personally have. Who’s going to provide this equality? The 1% politically elite millionaires? A workers revolutionary party (who will become the new 1% polically elite millionairres)? Of course it’s not fair, nor is life, is that an amzing discovery? Apart from, ‘we should spread the wealth around’ (not mine you’re not!), what suggestions are there to create this equality and fairness?
    I think that we are being systematically brainwashed to be consumers first. Perhaps that's the place to start. People have to have some currency other than unchecked materialism. All that mental effort spent finding ways to earn money to spend impulsively because we have become Pavlov's dogs when it comes to advertising and within a couple of years, we are tossing those items for new items because we don't have enough space for all of the junk we buy. TBH, it's crazy how much western society wastes, but it's integrated into the current economic model.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Multinationals own people in government, a lot of people - either on the direct payment plan or on the deferred payment plan. Thus for all intents and purposes, they own government(s). I'm speaking internationally here. Who said they didn't collude? Of course, they collude. That is all made possible because elected representatives can be bought either through campaign funding, promises of well-paid post-political positions or good old-fashioned envelopes full of money. At the end of the day, the ones with the bags full of money end up calling the shots. To the multinationals, that's just the cost of doing business. I don't understand where this was unclear or where we are really not in agreement.

    You still haven't stated where this global free market exists. All you did was to pretend that there really is some error in my argument. There isn't. Politicians are for sale. You can call it mutual backscratching if you like, but the only free market that exists is in the prices for political favors.

    But there is not multi-national government, no global government, none. Your argument was there must be for the market to function. That is false, completely and utterly false.

    I've also explained how under state capitalism, as opposed to free market capitalism, governments and businesses collude. Politicians sell out power for the money to support their re-election. ower corrupts. There's no argument there.

    "You still haven't stated where this global free market exists," is a puzzling statement. It exists as we all know well and good in global international trade.

    Your premises are unfounded. They're merely opinions based on imaginative possibilities, not plausible realities.

    The free market is what the government tries to manage for the sake of politicians and buinesses that seek political favors. As Franz Oppenheimer put it in 1922

    There are two fundamentally opposed means whereby man, requiring sustenance, is impelled to obtain the necessary means for satisfying his desires. These are work and robbery, one’s own labor and the forcible appropriation of the labor of others… I propose in the following discussion to call one’s own labor and the equivalent exchange of one’s own labor for the labor of others, the “economic means” for the satisfaction of needs, while the unrequited appropriation of the labor of others will be called the “political means.”
    The economic means is the free market. The political means is a corruption of the market.


    Anyway, your initial premises simply do not hold water in light of the global, internation market where there is not government in power.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    But there is not multi-national government, no global government, none. Your argument was there must be for the market to function. That is false, completely and utterly false.

    I've also explained how under state capitalism, as opposed to free market capitalism, governments and businesses collude. Politicians sell out power for the money to support their re-election. ower corrupts. There's no argument there.

    "You still haven't stated where this global free market exists," is a puzzling statement. It exists as we all know well and good in global international trade.

    Your premises are unfounded. They're merely opinions based on imaginative possibilities, not plausible realities.

    The free market is what the government tries to manage for the sake of politicians and buinesses that seek political favors. As Franz Oppenheimer put it in 1922



    The economic means is the free market. The political means is a corruption of the market.


    Anyway, your initial premises simply do not hold water in light of the global, internation market where there is not government in power.
    Global oligopolies are not free market actors. They control markets internationally. They set prices internationally. How can a market be free if there are actors who are so powerful that they can literally control international competition and set global prices? That's capitalism on steroids, not a free market. The international market is every bit as corrupt as domestic markets.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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