The hard road of free markets

[Captdon]

Free market is bull$#@! because it's rigged. It will always benefit those who have the most money. The answer is to change with the times rather than apply old theories and practices that are easily manipulated these days. My opinion is mine - flawed or not.

You didn't offer any alternative.

[Captdon]

Who do you think is in the government vs the citizenry - different species? The corruption that you find in government comes from its citizens.

It most certainly doesn't. It comes from greed by the people we trusted.

[Captdon]

There are people who put in even more than 3,000 hours a year who don't get a 10th of what you get for those 12-hour days. However, consider why you have to put in 12-hour days. Go back a few hundred years. Most people routinely put in 12-hour days 7-days a week back then. Was it always because they needed to work that hard to live or was it often because their labor was often primarily accruing to someone else so that they had to work at least half as much again just to eat? If you look at the value that your labor accrues to someone else and the number of people who are probably living very well off the value of your labor without working at all, you will see that the current system is set up to create a pyramidal system where the many support the few in the lap of luxury. Now today for some people working 12-hour days is the difference between just having the necessities of life and for others it is about about being a part of a certain class, having a certain house and paying for very expensive university educations for their children.

Realistically, if 90% of all after-tax profits were not going to investors who do nothing to earn income, you wouldn't have to work as hard, but the entire system from banking to the stock market is set up this way. Product that millions of hours of labor takes to create is destroyed routinely, rather than selling for less, produce that farmers sweat blood to deliver is burned, rather than lower prices. Who is really benefitting from all of this waste? You? Your family? TBH as the 'market' is increasingly involved in the bottom line of businesses and the value of currency, people have gone from the American dream to the American nightmare. Simultaneously, the population has been taught to believe that they deserve a standard of luxury that their parents didn't enjoy and they are not willing to wait to upgrade. They have to have it before they hit their 40's, so there has never been a greater level of personal debt, not to mention national debt. What is the common denominator?

This not only is wrong, it is all wrong.

[Captdon]

I think that we are being systematically brainwashed to be consumers first. Perhaps that's the place to start. People have to have some currency other than unchecked materialism. All that mental effort spent finding ways to earn money to spend impulsively because we have become Pavlov's dogs when it comes to advertising and within a couple of years, we are tossing those items for new items because we don't have enough space for all of the junk we buy. TBH, it's crazy how much western society wastes, but it's integrated into the current economic model.

I'm not brain-washed. I don't know about you.

I didn't spend impulsively. That's why I have a comfortable retirement where I don't work at all.

[Chris]

Global oligopolies are not free market actors. They control markets internationally. They set prices internationally. How can a market be free if there are actors who are so powerful that they can literally control international competition and set global prices? That's capitalism on steroids, not a free market. The international market is every bit as corrupt as domestic markets.

Jesus, Who, you argued that government was necessary for markets to exist. THat is dead wrong. Instead of facing that you start aruing all over the place willy nilly. You know if you throw enough spaghetti at the wall chances are one might stick.


Free in free market means free of government regulation. That's all it means.

State capitalism is capitalism on steroids.

What funny here is that you are appalled at some sort of oligarchy have some kind of control, but are not appalled one bit about government monopoly, in fact, you advocate it, demand it, cheer it on.

[Dr. Who]

Jesus, Who, you argued that government was necessary for markets to exist. THat is dead wrong. Instead of facing that you start aruing all over the place willy nilly. You know if you throw enough spaghetti at the wall chances are one might stick.


Free in free market means free of government regulation. That's all it means.

State capitalism is capitalism on steroids.

What funny here is that you are appalled at some sort of oligarchy have some kind of control, but are not appalled one bit about government monopoly, in fact, you advocate it, demand it, cheer it on.

The common definition is an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses. Does it really matter who or what interferes in that market? You are obsessed with state participation in that canoodling, but you seem to give the multinational actors a free pass in the relationship. They are the ones instigating the relationship and paying to play. I have nothing but contempt for those who allow themselves to be bought, but the sale of political favor is built into the system and it's not a free market system, it's a capitalist system. The free market is basically another edition of "where's Waldo". It really exists in the black market economy and in the underground economy, but it's a minor player in the economic scheme of things in western countries. That ship sailed a long time ago and the state is not going away anytime soon, if ever.

[Dr. Who]

I'm not brain-washed. I don't know about you.

I didn't spend impulsively. That's why I have a comfortable retirement where I don't work at all.

Not working at all is the definition of retirement. When I retire, I don't plan to work at all either. Still, being retired from birth is a bit much.

[Chris]

The common definition is an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses. Does it really matter who or what interferes in that market? You are obsessed with state participation in that canoodling, but you seem to give the multinational actors a free pass in the relationship. They are the ones instigating the relationship and paying to play. I have nothing but contempt for those who allow themselves to be bought, but the sale of political favor is built into the system and it's not a free market system, it's a capitalist system. The free market is basically another edition of "where's Waldo". It really exists in the black market economy and in the underground economy, but it's a minor player in the economic scheme of things in western countries. That ship sailed a long time ago and the state is not going away anytime soon, if ever.

Your argument was markets are impossible without government. That is wrong. I don't care what other off topic argument you now change to, like arguing from dictionary definitions, to try and cover up your BS. The free market is what your beloved government tries to manage, and fails miserably at.

[Peter1469]

Your argument was markets are impossible without government. That is wrong. I don't care what other off topic argument you now change to, like arguing from dictionary definitions, to try and cover up your BS. The free market is what your beloved government tries to manage, and fails miserably at.

We have the illegal drug trade. That is sort of without government- except for law enforcement.

But if you are buying anything on the legal side it is taxed and controlled in some sort of way by government.

[Chris]

We have the illegal drug trade. That is sort of without government- except for law enforcement.

But if you are buying anything on the legal side it is taxed and controlled in some sort of way by government.

Right, but that is each government on its own trying to manage the market.

We do have organizations like WTO but it has no power to enforce any rules.

The argument Who is putting forth is government is necessary for the market to exist and that's nonsense. Markets existed before governments, exist outside governments, and even within in the form of black markets and other ilegal trade like drugs.