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Thread: The hard road of free markets

  1. #101
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    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captdon View Post
    In capitalism there have to be the rich, the poor and the middle. You can't eliminate any of those. Some people, through bad luck or laziness, will always be poor. The middle class does the work that the rich invent and invest in.

    A true free market can no longer exist. There has to be a method, a way to trade goods. My labor is goods. that I get money in exchange is the only reliable method. Who determines the value of the work I do in exchange for the work someone else does? Certainly the nation-state, for all it failings, cannot be replaced by anything anyone has come up with.

    Who, besides the government, ensures I get my value? There has to be a balance, and it isn't liberalism or a totally free market, but who decides what it is?

    This sort of rambles because the whole thread is a mish-mash.

    Realize though that rich..poor is not static but very dynamic with people rising up and falling down all the time.

    The method in the free market is subjective value signaled by prices. When you work you exchange your labor which you value less than you value the compensation earned that you feed, clothe and shelter yourself and family with, and go on vacations and buy mororcycles. Who determines your compensation? You and your employer each subjectively.

    If someone else, say the government, steps in and sets prices, wages, etc, it distorts the market for goods and services and labor. It creates shortages or gluts.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    In about five minutes it would turn into capitalism, just as it did in the past because as long as we value money above everything else, it will always be thus.
    I value capitalism and money: If it wasn't for capitalism, and the knowledge to make wise investments, I wouldn't have made the money that I made. And thus it's the money I have saved that gives me freedom, especially in retirement, to do what I want, go where I want and eat what I want etc. That doesn't mean I value money above everything else, I value money for the freedom it provides me.


    Who's to say that someone else values money above everything else? Is it simply because they have a lot of money? Is it because they work hard to make more money when they already have a lot? How do you go about making that judgment?

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post

    Realistically, if 90% of all after-tax profits were not going to investors who do nothing to earn income, you wouldn't have to work as hard, but the entire system from banking to the stock market is set up this way.
    That's true, he wouldn't have to work as hard because that particular employment situation wouldn't exist without investors. The money investors put up that enable corporations to exist, represents stored labor. And why would investors risk their money (i.e. labor) without the possibility of a return on their investment? In some cases investors lose all of their investment while workers have earned and saved money. Remember when General Motors went bankrupt?

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trumpster View Post
    That's true, he wouldn't have to work as hard because that particular employment situation wouldn't exist without investors. The money investors put up that enable corporations to exist, represents stored labor. And why would investors risk their money (i.e. labor) without the possibility of a return on their investment? In some cases investors lose all of their investment while workers have earned and saved money. Remember when General Motors went bankrupt?
    Few of the actual 1% ever really lose much of their investments, since they are generally tipped off long before the share prices hit the skids. It's the small investors that lose everything.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Few of the actual 1% ever really lose much of their investments, since they are generally tipped off long before the share prices hit the skids. It's the small investors that lose everything.
    Again, do you have any evidence to support your claims?

    5 wealthy families who lost their fortunes

    10 Billionaires Who Lost Their Fortunes

    10 Filthy Rich People Who Lost Their Fortunes

    The Top 10 Millionaires & Billionaires Who Lost It All

    since they are generally tipped off
    What by paying attention to prices?
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Trumpster (12-28-2017)

  7. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    First of all, I was referring to the stock market and let's not pretend that insider trading doesn't happen. Let's also not pretend that those who are heavily invested in preferred shares in companies are not told if something is going to cause those share prices to tank.

    Furthermore, most of those links list wealthy people who mismanaged and/or squandered their wealth or bet the whole pot on one risky venture and lost.
    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    First of all, I was referring to the stock market and let's not pretend that insider trading doesn't happen. Let's also not pretend that those who are heavily invested in preferred shares in companies are not told if something is going to cause those share prices to tank.

    Furthermore, most of those links list wealthy people who mismanaged and/or squandered their wealth or bet the whole pot on one risky venture and lost.

    First of all, I'm not pretending insider trading doesn't happen, the problem is you make it sound as if it defines the stockmarket without any evidence. You do know that the various stock markets and exchanges all started out self-regulating and regulated against insider trading. Mismanaging is what people like Bernie Madoff excel at. But it is the exception and not the norm. Who occupies the 1% is very dynamic. Sorry that doesn't fit your unrealistic liberal anti-capitalist views.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    http://www.turnaroundletter.com/larg...cies-this-year

    Largest Bankruptcies of 2017

    That's just for one year and it's likely that many of the CEOs could have been in the top 1% . Three of them were finance companies. Imagine how many big companies went bankrupt in the years after the housing crash.
    Last edited by Trumpster; 12-28-2017 at 03:39 PM.

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