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Thread: The Two Sides

  1. #21
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    the most fundamental of all assumptions is a belief or nonbelief in God
    I see those as essentially one and the same. Especially if they are reduced to assumptions. And I'm not sure what else they can be unless someone can establish what God is. But that leads to man defining God. But without knowing what God is the question of (non)belief seems meaningless. What is it you are (non)belieiving in? --It is based on this agnostic view that I chose to not believe, which I hold to be something different from (non)belief.

    Further, if we cannot know God, in a way to at least communicate what you know as justified true belief, that we cannot know what God considers right and wrong. All we have to go on is what we do know of our nature as reasoning, social beings. What is right is that set of actions that enable us to be who we are, according to our nature, to achieve some dignity and happiness, and what is wrong is what interferes with that.

    I will add that if you choose to believe then that is good for you and I respect that as part of the liberty of conscience we all share as long as we are free to.

    That said I contend that the position taken in this thread seems to be derived from Augustine while mine is derived from Aquinas. Quoting from Rothbard's The Ethics of Liberty:



    Rothbard goes on to explain this Thomistic position with reference to the Spanish Scholastic Suarez:



    Natural law is true regardless the existence of God as its Creator.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  2. #22
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    Common's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It is in our nature to want to classify and categorize things. As this is a political forum, categories usually divide into camps like "capitalist" and "socialist" or "Democrat" and "Republican".

    But it seems to me, there is essentially only one dichotomy that really matters, which is theist or atheist.

    Granted, there are ostensible divisions within each of these respective groups, but those divisions are the result of human error and arrogance.

    For my own part, I've always been a theist. I started out as a Catholic simply because that is what my family was and all my neighbors were. And I still have a soft spot for Catholicism to this day. However, I've gravitated more towards "pagan" religions and their emphasis on nature as a direct connection to the divine. I sense a great deal of truth in this. I also feel connected to paganism's communal spirit, though I have little use for their pantheons except as metaphors.

    Anyway, my point is that all divisions we perceive can and probably should be distilled down to whether or not one believes in God. After all, everything is defined by that on some level.
    We are similar but alas not totally alike, I was also raised a catholic and still have leanings, but one thing growing up does is give you a different perspective about your faith and moreso your religion. I drifted from catholicism slowly but surely over the years but the pedophille fiasco made me realize that to worship god or jesus you dont have to do that through another human being.
    If you believe in a higher power then when you speak to him directly he hears you.

    It seems there are more older boomers identifying as non denominal christians including close friends of mine. They believe in jesus but not in a religion of man.
    LETS GO BRANDON
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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It is in our nature to want to classify and categorize things. As this is a political forum, categories usually divide into camps like "capitalist" and "socialist" or "Democrat" and "Republican".

    But it seems to me, there is essentially only one dichotomy that really matters, which is theist or atheist.

    Granted, there are ostensible divisions within each of these respective groups, but those divisions are the result of human error and arrogance.

    For my own part, I've always been a theist. I started out as a Catholic simply because that is what my family was and all my neighbors were. And I still have a soft spot for Catholicism to this day. However, I've gravitated more towards "pagan" religions and their emphasis on nature as a direct connection to the divine. I sense a great deal of truth in this. I also feel connected to paganism's communal spirit, though I have little use for their pantheons except as metaphors.

    Anyway, my point is that all divisions we perceive can and probably should be distilled down to whether or not one believes in God. After all, everything is defined by that on some level.
    I don't think so. I disagree more than I agree. I don't really know how much my religious beliefs affect my political beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trish View Post
    I disagree. What I decide to do or not do is based on my life code. It makes ME feel good to help someone else or to say a kind word to another person. I don't do it because "God" is watching and I may not get into heaven. To me, that is simply bogus. I don't need an audience to applaud me or thank me when I do something good.

    My perception of religion and religious people is that they do acts of kindness for several reasons. 1) to be recognized for that act. 2) to get a tax break.

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point.
    I learned to do good from my Catholic upbringing. Children are, by nature, selfish. They have to learn good deeds.
    I don't seek recognition nor to I take tax breaks. Tax breaks is getting the government doing good at a discount.
    Last edited by Captdon; 12-28-2017 at 06:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It is in our nature to want to classify and categorize things. As this is a political forum, categories usually divide into camps like "capitalist" and "socialist" or "Democrat" and "Republican".

    But it seems to me, there is essentially only one dichotomy that really matters, which is theist or atheist.

    Granted, there are ostensible divisions within each of these respective groups, but those divisions are the result of human error and arrogance.

    For my own part, I've always been a theist. I started out as a Catholic simply because that is what my family was and all my neighbors were. And I still have a soft spot for Catholicism to this day. However, I've gravitated more towards "pagan" religions and their emphasis on nature as a direct connection to the divine. I sense a great deal of truth in this. I also feel connected to paganism's communal spirit, though I have little use for their pantheons except as metaphors.

    Anyway, my point is that all divisions we perceive can and probably should be distilled down to whether or not one believes in God. After all, everything is defined by that on some level.
    I tell people I have a much easier time believing in god than I do believing in Jesus. Truth be told, I am more into a free-form Daoism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    But a moral compass doesn't correspond to reality in your scenario. There cannot be a "right thing to do" if right and wrong are merely human conceptions.
    TBH the very notion of a God or gods is a human conception. It long preexists Abrahamic beliefs and there are those who are every bit as convinced about the existence of their Gods as every good Christian, Jew or Muslim is of their own. Sometimes the very notions of right and wrong get lost in the politics of religions. Why can't right and wrong be basic truths that we are innately capable of understanding?
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    We are similar but alas not totally alike, I was also raised a catholic and still have leanings, but one thing growing up does is give you a different perspective about your faith and moreso your religion. I drifted from catholicism slowly but surely over the years but the pedophille fiasco made me realize that to worship god or jesus you dont have to do that through another human being.
    If you believe in a higher power then when you speak to him directly he hears you.

    It seems there are more older boomers identifying as non denominal christians including close friends of mine. They believe in jesus but not in a religion of man.
    Very true. For many the religions themselves are tainted with hypocrisy.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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  12. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And in my humble and probably correct opinion (), the most fundamental of all assumptions is a belief or nonbelief in God. Everything stems from that.
    A belief or disbelief in a deity is largely irrelevant in the day to day world of most people. Unless conditioned to do so, most people don't waste their time pondering the issue.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Right and wrong have no meaning in your world. That's not an attack. It's just the logical conclusion of your own belief system.
    That is complete and utter nonsense. Right and wrong are not defined by some imaginary deity. They are decided by Man. They are determined by necessity.
    Last edited by Cletus; 12-29-2017 at 07:26 AM.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Right and wrong have no meaning in your world. That's not an attack. It's just the logical conclusion of your own belief system.
    Of course it is.

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