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Thread: The Two Sides

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    You are making the same mistake so many other holier than thou types make... you are applying the standards of today to people of another age. You are saying the Spartans were wrong, but you are incapable of looking at things from their perspective in the context of their age. Did the Spartans have the medical knowledge to help a seriously deformed child? How much of a burden on society would such a child have been if it lived? Was exposing the child an act of callousness, or was it an act of faith and piety, putting the child in the hands of their gods?

    Your self righteousness, ignorance and arrogance prevent you from even considering any of these things.
    I suppose calling me self-righteous, ignorant, and arrogant are not really insults either.

    Anyway, I am not applying the standards of today. I am applying standards of what I believe to be universal and timeless justice. I think any reasonable person from any time would agree that murdering infants is wrong objectively speaking. The fact that murdering an infant may make things easier on people doesn't really enter into it. Because it's one thing if you make an effort to care for the infant but it dies anyway, it's entirely another to just discard it like trash because taking caring of it might be difficult and because you only care about perpetuating a master race of warriors. That said, I understand why they did it and I agree that the practice can be rationalized from a utilitarian perspective. But I still have no problem saying it was morally wrong in an absolute sense, whereas you can only say it is wrong in a purely relative sense.
    Last edited by Ethereal; 01-03-2018 at 12:03 AM.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    Do you need more?
    More what?
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I suppose calling me self-righteous, ignorant, and arrogant are not really insults either.

    Anyway, I am not applying the standards of today. I am applying standards of what I believe to be universal and timeless justice. I think any reasonable person from any time would agree that murdering infants is wrong objectively speaking. The fact that murdering an infant may make things easier on people doesn't really enter into it. Because it's one thing if you make an effort to care for the infant but it dies anyway, it's entirely another to just discard it like trash because taking caring of it might be difficult and because you only care about perpetuating a master race of warriors. That said, I understand why they did it and I agree that the practice can be rationalized from a utilitarian perspective. But I still have no problem saying it was morally wrong in a universal sense, whereas you can only say it is wrong in a purely relative sense.
    Don't hold your breath for a response. Standing Wolf has left the forum.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



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  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Don't hold your breath for a response. Standing Wolf has left the forum.
    That post was directed at Cletus.

    In any case, perhaps SW will come back after a break. Or perhaps he won't. At this point, I really don't care anymore.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    That post was directed at Cletus.

    In any case, perhaps SW will come back after a break. Or perhaps he won't. At this point, I really don't care anymore.
    Sorry. Responded to the wrong post.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    A comment on how society creates things as opposed to individuals. The example comes from Hayek, somewhere. There are two towns seperated by a woods. The towns need to communicate and trade, so people make paths through the woods, initially each making a new path. But over time, people will see other paths and try them out, find shortcuts, etc. Over time some paths will widen as people select them, and become wider to accommodate wider traffic. In time one or two paths will be worn in as roads. They won't be straight. They may not even make logical or asthetic sense. But they will serve the people. Society does create. It creates by the actions of a society but not by any design. Contrast with the government plowing a road straight through the woods. It may not serve anyone in particular. It tears up a wide swatch through the woods. It cost millions of dollars. It was designed.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    That is correct. You ARE self righteous, ignorant and arrogant. Would you prefer I lied to you about that?
    You have a penchant for making ironic statements.

    Okay, that was gibberish. You say any reasonable person from any time would say it was wrong, then you say it is easy to rationalize. You are still projecting YOUR morals from the present time on to a totally different culture. If you had lived in Sparta during the time frame in question and had a deformed child, you would have done the same thing they did and you would have believed it was the right thing to do. If you say otherwise, you are not being honest.
    I said it can be rationalized from a utilitarian perspective. That doesn't change the fact that it's immoral and that any reasonable person would view it as such.

    In any case, I noticed you conveniently sidestepped the atrocities committed by the Nazis and the Soviets. According to your logic, what they did was only "wrong" relative to the standards that exist in other times and places. You cannot condemn such acts based upon an objective and universally cognizable standard because "right" and "wrong" are nothing more than mere playthings to be twisted and tortured by whoever possess the most power. That pretty much proves how bankrupt and craven your moral relativism is.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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