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Thread: There Is No Right to Healthcare

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Many good and moral ideas and absolutely horrifically immoral ideas have been attributed to the influence of the divine and the history of mankind on this planet includes thousands of divinities. As a result, I tend to take such beliefs with a grain of salt. I think that it is analogous to the lonely child and his or her imaginary friend to whom the child's will is transferred. Suffice it to say that you could grow up in a communal camp on the moon with no knowledge of any God and still eventually come to most of the same conclusions if you were neither starving nor having to fight others to survive.
    Then take them with a grain of salt. I'm not sure how your hatred for religion is relevant. Anyway, it's not clear exactly what your claim is here. Are you saying men would have come to the same moral conclusions that they historically derived from a sense of the sacred? Can you demonstrate your claim? Historically, you can't so while you intend to have your talk of moon colonies interpreted as derision and ridicule it comes across more as frustration and desperation.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Right. And this distinction Who makes between negative and positive doesn't change that. The justification for positive law obligations on society to help and provide for the weak, sick, downtrodden, poor, etc are based on negative, natural rights.
    Right. Who's apparent intent is to disconnect morality, justice etc. from both a sense of the sacred and from any foundation external to Man. That's all well and good but what I won't accept is her inability (or refusal) to acknowledge what this logically entails. There is nothing left but momentary, ephemeral desires and...force.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Right. Who's apparent intent is to disconnect morality, justice etc. from both a sense of the sacred and from any foundation external to Man. That's all well and good but what I won't accept is her inability (or refusal) to acknowledge what this logically entails. There is nothing left but momentary, ephemeral desires and...force.
    True, and we lose all sense of dignity under Who's worldview.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    True, and we lose all sense of dignity under Who's worldview.
    Who seems to believe that we can will our own dignity and purpose. It's a Nietzschean project but my only objection is that she refuses to admit that. To her, these are all just common sense conclusions anyone would come to regardless of how they actually perceive the universe and our place in it.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    The most basic right is to live. If that right is denied, I sure as hell wouldn’t sign up to healthcare being a right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister D View Post
    Who seems to believe that we can will our own dignity and purpose. It's a Nietzschean project but my only objection is that she refuses to admit that. To her, these are all just common sense conclusions anyone would come to regardless of how they actually perceive the universe and our place in it.
    She is, and other liberals as well, I think, playing on an ambiguity.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense:

    Common sense is sound practical judgment concerning everyday matters, or a basic ability to perceive, understand, and judge that is shared by ("common to") nearly all people.[1] The first type of common sense, good sense, can be described as "the knack for seeing things as they are, and doing things as they ought to be done." The second type is sometimes described as folk wisdom, "signifying unreflective knowledge not reliant on specialized training or deliberative thought." The two types are intertwined, as the person who has common sense is in touch with common-sense ideas, which emerge from the lived experiences of those commonsensical enough to perceive them
    Common sense has more to do with folk wisdom than deliberate design however reasonable.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    She is, and other liberals as well, I think, playing on an ambiguity.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_sense:



    Common sense has more to do with folk wisdom than deliberate design however reasonable.
    Thanks for pointing that out. I certainly meant the former. I'll be clearer next time.
    Whoever criticizes capitalism, while approving immigration, whose working class is its first victim, had better shut up. Whoever criticizes immigration, while remaining silent about capitalism, should do the same.


    ~Alain de Benoist


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    I believe that the liberal point of view is that human rights are the product of logic and reason and are dependant on individual societies to recognize or ignore. Since by definition, healthcare is arguably a positive right, it derives from societal demand, although one could argue that the preservation of life is also a natural right.
    I would argue that American rights are exclusively what the US Constitution says that they are--nothing more, and nothing less--and without some expansive interpretation of the "general welfare" clause...

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    There is no right that forces another to labor on your behalf.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    A "right" to healthcare that lacks a basis in universal, transcendent, immutable truth is objectively no different than a "right" to go around raping and pillaging. I wonder, will the wishy-washy moral relativists grasp this?
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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