Does Anyone Really Doubt...

[Ethereal]

Move on to what?

A loose confederation of States. A political union at the scale of the US cannot produce a genuine republic. It's time to accept the fact that the "anti-federalists" were right about the deep flaws embedded in the US Constitution.

[Ethereal]

The great easily form associations; the poor and middling class form them with difficulty. If the elections be by plurality, — as probably will be the case in [New York], — it is almost certain none but the great will be chosen, for they easily unite their interests: the common people will divide, and their divisions will be promoted by the others. There will be scarcely a chance of their uniting in any other but some great man, unless in some popular demagogue, who will probably be destitute of principle. A substantial yeoman, of sense and discernment, will hardly ever be chosen. From these remarks, it appears that the government will fall into the hands of the few and the great. This will be a government of oppression.
--Melancton Smith

In a republic, the manners, sentiments, and interests of the people should be similar. If this be not the case, there will be a constant clashing of opinions; and the representatives of one part will be continually striving against those of the other. This will retard the operations of government, and prevent such conclusions as will promote the public good. If we apply this remark to the condition of the United States, we shall be convinced that it forbids that we should be one government. The United States includes a variety of climates. The productions of the different parts of the union are very variant, and their interests, of consequence, diverse. Their manners and habits differ as much as their climates and productions; and their sentiments are by no means coincident. The laws and customs of the several states are, in many respects, very diverse, and in some opposite; each would be in favor of its own interests and customs, and, of consequence, a legislature, formed of representatives from the respective parts, would not only be too numerous to act with any care or decision, but would be composed of such heterogenous and discordant principles, as would constantly be contending with each other.
--"Brutus"

[Archer0915]

...that the US political system is an oligarchy?

I know that in theory the US political system is a republic, but is that what it is in actual practice?

Do you actually feel like the average American is in control of the US political system?

Personally, I am shocked that anyone would deny this or try to downplay its severity. Upon examination of the available evidence, the oligarchic nature of the US political system becomes incredibly obvious. Just as one example out of many, consider the last budget bill passed by the Congress. Nobody even read the entire thing. Only one Senator (Rand Paul) even made a real effort to read it or inform Americans of what was in it, and he's considered a "radical" and "trouble-maker" as a result. And like virtually every other big bill that comes out of Congress, that bill was heavily crafted by corporate lobbyists. There are MANY, MANY, MANY examples of this kind of thing happening. In fact, that example is rather pedestrian in terms of its severity. Just consider the big lie that was the war in Iraq. It would have NEVER occurred to the average American to invade and occupy Iraq in response to 9/11. They had to be swindled into it by the political class and the corporate media. And as everyone knows, it was one of the worst disasters in history. But lots of people got insanely rich because of it. Stocks for big banks and military contractors have all done very well since 9/11. Oh, except that one time when big banks crashed the economy with greedy speculation. Bank stocks didn't do too well back then. But no worries, because the US government was ready to shovel mountains of taxpayer money at them. Clearly what the average American wanted to happen, right? If I think hard enough, I can remember the populist cries in the street, "Bail out the big banks with our money!" Ah, sweet American "democracy" triumphs again. Okay, I'm done...

Uhhhn... have you lost your damn mind? Ask a question like that? I guess it was a rhetorical question. You know it is.

[Mini Me]

Move on to what?

moveon.org hahahaha

[Mini Me]

The big banks and the politicians they bribe say we have to bail out the big banks otherwise economic Armageddon will ensue!


You don't find that to be a highly suspect narrative?

I believe the mortgage meltdown, financial collapse and bailout was deliberately a set up deal by Wall Street crooks!

If you want to know the intent, just look at the results!

See: MandelmanMatters

[Tahuyaman]

I believe the mortgage meltdown, financial collapse and bailout was deliberately a set up deal by Wall Street crooks!

If you want to know the intent, just look at the results!

See: MandelmanMatters

It was a predictable result of misguided government meddling.

[Mini Me]

It was a predictable result of misguided government meddling.

Not really. It was private, unregulated mortgage lenders that started the toxic loans. I can name a whole bunch of them. The Securitization process got corrupted, and Fannie-Fred started buying the loans, and the hedge funds got involved.

[Tahuyaman]

It was a predictable result of misguided government meddling.

Not really. It was private, unregulated mortgage lenders that started the toxic loans. I can name a whole bunch of them. The Securitization process got corrupted, and Fannie-Fred started buying the loans, and the hedge funds got involved.

It was government meddling and mandates which caused the problems.


Government forced lending institutions make loans they knew could never be repaid. That's a fact.

[DGUtley]

It was: (in no particular order)

Government meddling by forcing the banks to give mortgages that they didn't want to give. They sued the banks when they didn't. I was there.
Greedy/spineless loan officers / banks that gave up fighting Mordor and then went all in.
Do-gooders that couldn't live with people having apartments.
Corrupt appraisers jacking the values to justify larger loans.
Greedy buyers buying more than they could afford.
Ignorant buyers buying more than they should.
Greedy AIG insuring the risk.
Greedy hedge funds betting the farm we'd fail.

[Ethereal]

Not really. It was private, unregulated mortgage lenders that started the toxic loans. I can name a whole bunch of them. The Securitization process got corrupted, and Fannie-Fred started buying the loans, and the hedge funds got involved.

The mortgage industry is heavily subsidized and manipulated by the government. Fannie and Freddie are government corporations. The fingerprints of government planning are all over the mortgage bubble.