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Thread: Rape kits, DNA, and criminals

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by stjames1_53 View Post
    it is akin to spying on Americans, in an off-handed manner. What if the DNA samples they are looking for are not on file? Force everyone to give up their DNA? make it a law?
    I'm not willing to give my DNA up, not even for Ancestry.com or any of the others, if I don't have a right to privacy. Now what? force me?
    Don't be hysterical.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Don't be hysterical.
    I have not gotten demeaning or insulting towards you. I am merely stating the obvious.
    What you suggest is a very slippery slope.
    You, who advocate reducing the impact of government, are proposing to increase the State's power and reducing the citizen's Rights, Power, and what's left of our Privacy, just in case..............
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
    "The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools."
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    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" B. Franklin
    Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    This is already included in the cost of evaluating a dna sample. Whose privacy is it invading?

    Let's say it is my dna being sent off. What the police get back says 40% of my dna comes from England, 10% from Scotland, 40% from western Europe, and 10% from Western Washington state Indian tribes. The company will also provide the names of near matches for my dna. From this the police should know they are looking for a white male, height probably around 5'10" - 6', medium to heavy build. For fifty bucks the police get some clues. I understand they can even use this to determine my most likely skin color.

    They also get a list of names of near dna matches. If those people live in the area where the crimes occurred they might have some information to share.
    DNA phenotyping is not an acceptable form of forensic technology/science/evidence. It would be useless in court. It would likely be useless for getting a warrant. It is not accurate enough to rely on.

    The solution is actually really simple. 1) Provide more funding to crime labs and police departments and 2) pay more money for trained scientists so they don't just go into the private sector. If we're getting ambitious, invest in RapidHIT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adelaide View Post
    DNA phenotyping is not an acceptable form of forensic technology/science/evidence. It would be useless in court. It would likely be useless for getting a warrant. It is not accurate enough to rely on.

    The solution is actually really simple. 1) Provide more funding to crime labs and police departments and 2) pay more money for trained scientists so they don't just go into the private sector. If we're getting ambitious, invest in RapidHIT.
    However, it can provide leads. Not evidence. Leads. I know the solution for some people is to always throw far more money at a problem. The money tree is not growing any longer.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stjames1_53 View Post
    I have not gotten demeaning or insulting towards you. I am merely stating the obvious.
    What you suggest is a very slippery slope.
    You, who advocate reducing the impact of government, are proposing to increase the State's power and reducing the citizen's Rights, Power, and what's left of our Privacy, just in case..............
    You have gone off the rails. This provides leads to help solve real crimes. It is also quite inexpensive.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    However, it can provide leads. Not evidence. Leads. I know the solution for some people is to always throw far more money at a problem. The money tree is not growing any longer.
    The DOJ has known about this problem for decades at this point. The 2003 National Institute of Justice's "Report to the Attorney General on Delays in Forensic DNA" laid out the numerous existing problems and provided realistic solutions in the form of 5 key recommendations that should have been followed through on.

    If police departments and municipalities can afford tanks and militarization than they could probably put some of that money towards what I suggested. That's just one idea for dealing with the cost factor.

    There is no real solution that does not include spending more money on law enforcement. Perhaps it's time to place more of a priority on domestic security and take some money meant for the military and direct it towards this type of issue. The reality is that this is a cost issue. It is a resource issue because trained scientists aren't going to work for pennies in the public sector. It's an investment issue because students are not going into the forensic sciences (largely because of the other issues). It is a failure to adapt new, more expensive technology that pays off in the long run.

    It also is not just rape kits that are at risk. Juries are rapidly losing faith in DNA science because there have been so many errors. The reliability of the science is now questioned, and I can cite cases that brought it about if necessary as well as goofy precedents set by the judicial branch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    Private companies would not even be aware. I would suggest sending in a dna sample exactly the same way any other paying customers would. What could they tell us? They could tell us the areas of the world the perp drew his dna from. It could even offer a list of names of people who have a high match probability with the perp's sample.

    It would not be used as evidence. But it would offer substantial identity clues.
    Heres where you are wrong, if you send in a dna sample to Ancestry.com your dna is no longer private. Just do a simple google and read the myriad of hits that come up about private dna companies sharing and databasing your dna.

    Like it or not fighting crime on all levels is a govt function NOT a private function. Mixing the two is ludicrous.

    If theres a back log of rape kits its because Law enforcement labs are prioritizing which dna is tested first and what TYPES and for what reasons. For example passing up rape kits for possible serial killer dna or homicides etc.

    I would be dead set against any Private online entities like Ancestry.com or any storefront DNA testing facility like the ones Steve Wilkos uses for ANY law enforcement testing.

    If necessary expand law enforcements capability to test DNA at a faster pace.
    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterVeritis View Post
    You have gone off the rails. This provides leads to help solve real crimes. It is also quite inexpensive.
    Again, with the insults. I am merely stating the obvious. You need the DNA of almost everyone in the US. If you cannot find them in a US data base, do you examine the DNA of a person from another country? Let's take good example of this.
    What if the rapist is an illegal from Guatemala. How are you going to get DNA from a familia in that country?
    I am all for catching criminals. I want to make that clear. But it is immoral to examine everyone's DNA to catch a criminal.
    If a cop shows up at my door to ask about a crime of which I have no knowledge of, I do not need to talk to them. In the US, I am well within my Right NOT to talk to them. If they want to compel me to talk, they need to drag me down to the station with warrant in hand, and even then, since I've committed no crime, I am not obligated to talk to them, not even about some remote cousin I've never met. This is no different.
    But again, I reiterate. The police cannot use some of these services for a fishing expedition. Here is one example of privacy issues.
    https://www.23andme.com/about/privacy/
    2. We will not sell, lease, or rent your individual-level information (i.e., information about a single individual's genotypes, diseases or other traits/characteristics) to any third-party or to a third-party for research purposes without your explicit consent.
    4. You may independently decide to disclose your information to friends and/or family members, doctors, health care professionals, or other individuals outside our Services, including through third-party services such as social networks and third-party apps that connect to our website and mobile apps through our application programming interface ("API"); always review the privacy policies of third-party apps and services before sharing your information.
    5. We may share anonymized and aggregate information with third-parties; anonymized and aggregate information is any information that has been stripped of your name and contact information and aggregated with information of others or anonymized so that you cannot reasonably be identified as an individual.
    Terms of Service
    You cannot force this issue on an individual without their personal consent, or reveal another's DNA connection.
    You need a specific warrant. Or we can become another Mueller..........grab anyone you want and start testing to find a guilty party.
    Again, I'm only raising some of the concerns that the legal process will run into, and I'm not an attorney.
    For waltky: http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/
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  11. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Common View Post
    Heres where you are wrong, if you send in a dna sample to Ancestry.com your dna is no longer private. Just do a simple google and read the myriad of hits that come up about private dna companies sharing and databasing your dna.

    Like it or not fighting crime on all levels is a govt function NOT a private function. Mixing the two is ludicrous.

    If theres a back log of rape kits its because Law enforcement labs are prioritizing which dna is tested first and what TYPES and for what reasons. For example passing up rape kits for possible serial killer dna or homicides etc.

    I would be dead set against any Private online entities like Ancestry.com or any storefront DNA testing facility like the ones Steve Wilkos uses for ANY law enforcement testing.

    If necessary expand law enforcements capability to test DNA at a faster pace.
    No one is mixing the two. The genetics testing company does not treat the perp's sample any differently than they do any customer's sample. It develops leads. Nothing more.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.

  12. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by stjames1_53 View Post
    Again, with the insults. I am merely stating the obvious. You need the DNA of almost everyone in the US. If you cannot find them in a US data base, do you examine the DNA of a person from another country? Let's take good example of this.
    What if the rapist is an illegal from Guatemala. How are you going to get DNA from a familia in that country?
    I am all for catching criminals. I want to make that clear. But it is immoral to examine everyone's DNA to catch a criminal.
    If a cop shows up at my door to ask about a crime of which I have no knowledge of, I do not need to talk to them. In the US, I am well within my Right NOT to talk to them. If they want to compel me to talk, they need to drag me down to the station with warrant in hand, and even then, since I've committed no crime, I am not obligated to talk to them, not even about some remote cousin I've never met. This is no different.
    But again, I reiterate. The police cannot use some of these services for a fishing expedition. Here is one example of privacy issues.
    https://www.23andme.com/about/privacy/

    You cannot force this issue on an individual without their personal consent, or reveal another's DNA connection.
    You need a specific warrant. Or we can become another Mueller..........grab anyone you want and start testing to find a guilty party.
    Again, I'm only raising some of the concerns that the legal process will run into, and I'm not an attorney.
    Are you opposed to the police going door to door where a major crime has occurred to determine if anyone saw anything helpful?

    It is not a fishing expedition. The criminal left dna at the crime scene. The company that does the genetic testing is performing the same service for the police-delivered sample as they do for any other customer.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.

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