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Thread: Anarchy or Governent II

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    Anarchy or Governent II

    There are groups of people in our own nation who are very unhappy with the corruption of the curent system, understandably so. No one can blame a person for being fed up with a corrupt establishment. Every politician is bought and paid for and the American people are for sale.

    There is an idea that if peaceful means do not work this nation will be changed by force not considering for loss of life. Here is something that comes seriously to my mind. Yes in history we have had revolution but you have to take into account the differences in that world and in this current one. There is almost no comparison. If a revolution like the one of our history were to play out it would end nothing like the revolution of the past.

    All we need is some basic deep looking. Look at all of the angles no matter how small. Consider if the consequences outweigh the risks. We should consider for the loss of life.

    During the revolution the infrastructure was much different than the infrastructure we have now. If there was damage to properties perhaps some houses would have burned down, and stores, and back then bridges were made of wood. In our modern world infrastructure is much more complex. the destruction would be much greater. If you have seen images of Kiev, or of Syria that is much what our nation would look like if we started a war on our own soil.

    Something else to consider is that weaponry of the past was much different. We now have access to weapons that would decimate our infrastructure. We are not talking bayonets here. We are talking bombs and machine guns.

    Another thing the loss of life would be different than the revolution of the past because there were less people alive then. The same war fought on our soil today with our modern weaponry would bring a staggering loss of life.

    Also during the revolution people were a lot tougher. They had to work hard to get everything even the children had to pull their own weight. But the people of our day are much weaker. Our children grew up in front of tv's and computers. Some of them don't even go outside to play, some have never even watched the stars. People of today are much more delicate. If we thrust them into a volatile situation with war they would not withstand it.

    One more thing you may think that you are doing these people a favor by liberating them from their oppressors. But when the infrastructure is damaged how will the rubble ever be cleared? Will we wait for dirt to cover it then build on top of it? Consider this as well. If we start the war to liberate we will have innocent civilian casualties. You have to know when you kill the innocent you will be creating instant rebel factions. Those whos children die by your hand will rise up to kill yours in turn.

    The world you wished to create will just look like an average day in the middle east. You will have taken a beautiful nation mostly at peace and turned it into a desolate wasteland. Think it through completely from beginning to end. It may not be the result you had in mind. It is not difficult to do.

    In order to free the people who are oppressed you would kill the oppressed, how can you free the oppressed when they are no longer alive to be freed? Will you free them from their lives, in order that they may be free?

    I am not a believer in anarchy or revolution I always say EVOLUTION not revolution. I believe we can use peaceful means to change our world, an end corruption. I do not believe that we must shed the blood of the innocent, or destroy our nation so that we will not be oppressed. There are better ways.

    I have started this thread in the past 9-01-2016
    http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...-or-Government


    Last edited by Just AnotherPerson; 06-10-2018 at 02:41 PM.
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    A revolution will be the end of your liberals. We cut their power and stop food deliveries and it's over. No muss, no fuss.

    Like all liberals you don't know or understand middle America. We would outlast you.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Why were you fighting against Mr V so hard the other day in the threads arguing him for wanting to bring death to our soil. Why have you changed opinions since a few days ago? Are you the same person? http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...hand-in-making

    what is going on here?
    Last edited by Just AnotherPerson; 06-10-2018 at 09:49 PM.
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    Here's the problem in a nutshell. The government, following Max Weber, claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. It's all that concentrated power that leads to rent-seeking and that to corruption. Your solution seems to be to have the government govern itself. But that solution grants the government even more power leading to even more rent-seeking and even more corruption.

    No, the solution must be to take power away from the government and return it to the states or even local community control which endpoint, as I see it, is anarchy: Rules without rulers.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Here's the problem in a nutshell. The government, following Max Weber, claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. It's all that concentrated power that leads to rent-seeking and that to corruption. Your solution seems to be to have the government govern itself. But that solution grants the government even more power leading to even more rent-seeking and even more corruption.

    No, the solution must be to take power away from the government and return it to the states or even local community control which endpoint, as I see it, is anarchy: Rules without rulers.
    One might almost believe you support a Constitutionally limited government.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just AnotherPerson View Post
    Why were you fighting against Mr V so hard the other day in the threads arguing him for wanting to bring death to our soil. Why have you changed opinions since a few days ago? Are you the same person? http://thepoliticalforums.com/thread...hand-in-making

    what is going on here?

    We were talking about obeying the law. It has nothing to do with this.
    Liberals are a clear and present danger to our freedom and our society and our morals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Here's the problem in a nutshell. The government, following Max Weber, claims a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. It's all that concentrated power that leads to rent-seeking and that to corruption. Your solution seems to be to have the government govern itself. But that solution grants the government even more power leading to even more rent-seeking and even more corruption.

    No, the solution must be to take power away from the government and return it to the states or even local community control which endpoint, as I see it, is anarchy: Rules without rulers.
    That is exactly what I suggest in the link I provided. There would still be a government but it would be ran by the people. All citizens who are mentally sound and are intelligent enough would be entered into a lottery and each year one of the citizens could be elected and be president for a year. This would be so that we all have a part to play, and one year term would make it so that there was never a chance for corruption. The president would just be the "voice" of the people the representative who enacted the will of the people. We would all have a say in how each dollar is spent and where. All citizens would be active participants in governance. Unless some are disabled or not mentally sound.

    I am not solid on those ideas though they are just thoughts on peaceful and non corrupt ways we could change our nation. I would rather have this than war.

    Do you have any ideas for a peaceful ideas to give the power back to the people?

    The OP is just a deep looking exercise to see what the result would be if we went with the war version.
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just AnotherPerson View Post
    That is exactly what I suggest in the link I provided. There would still be a government but it would be ran by the people. All citizens who are mentally sound and are intelligent enough would be entered into a lottery and each year one of the citizens could be elected and be president for a year. This would be so that we all have a part to play, and one year term would make it so that there was never a chance for corruption. The president would just be the "voice" of the people the representative who enacted the will of the people. We would all have a say in how each dollar is spent and where. All citizens would be active participants in governance. Unless some are disabled or not mentally sound.

    I am not solid on those ideas though they are just thoughts on peaceful and non corrupt ways we could change our nation. I would rather have this than war.

    Do you have any ideas for a peaceful ideas to give the power back to the people?

    The OP is just a deep looking exercise to see what the result would be if we went with the war version.

    Then you have the worst form of government, democracy, run by the whims of an ever changing majority. On a small, local scale, the people might be abl;e to selg-govern, but not on the scale of the US.

    As a libertarian I hold to the non-aggression principle. Sometimes, though, given man's basic violent nature, I have my doubts. People will always think they can get what they want by coercive political means rather than voluntary economic means.
    Last edited by Chris; 06-11-2018 at 03:25 PM.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    The basic premise of "government" as most people understand it is as follows: Individuals cannot be trusted to govern themselves, so they need to be governed.

    But the question becomes: If individuals cannot be trusted to govern themselves, then how can individuals be trusted to govern others?

    The "state", which is what most people mean when they use the word "government", was created by ancient warlords and dictators as a means of consolidating their own power and authority over increasing amounts of people and territory. The earliest rulers - in places like Egypt, for example - ruled as literal Gods. In that respect, the state is one of the world's oldest religions, and certainly the most deadly. In fact, no other institution has caused more death, misery, and waste than government has, yet it persists in spite of all the carnage it has produced. This demonstrates the power of propaganda.
    Two things awe me most, the starry sky above me and the moral law within me.
    --Immanuel Kant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Then you have the worst form of government, democracy, run by the whims of an every changing majority. On a small, local scale, the people might be abl;e to selg-govern, but not on the scale of the US.

    As a libertarian I hold to the non-aggression principle. Sometimes, though, given man's basic violent nature, I have my doubts. People will always think they can get what they want by coercive political means rather than voluntary economic means.

    I might not agree but at least you said it well. I can appreciate that.
    We are all brothers and sisters in humanity. We are all made from the same dust of stars. We cannot be separated because all life is interconnected.

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